Atheists - A Question...

[nPeace]

Just because I pick nits ... it would actually be difficult to make creatures that could live in this world without the ability to feel pain. Not the physical act of creation, but they wouldn't survive long as pain is a primary survival mechanism.

That's a valid point.

I don't think that invalidates your point, because there could be a different mechanism to allow us to avoid physical damage.

Could be? Hmm. I'm interested. Go for it.
What's one mechanism? keeping in mind that there is also emotional pain.

Oops. I just realize you said "physical damage".
Yes. That's possible. A cyborg. I don't think that would be human though.
You guys have got me into the game though. I'm thinking hard.

 

[nPeace]

Agree.

The point is simply that it's so often that when you talk with religious people it goes something like this...

"God created everything, there is nothing he can't do, he only does good things etc. etc." and the moment you ask a critical question, it goes like this...

"Well God doesn't do that... God can't do... God and then something with free will... God didn't do it, humans are to blame... something with sin"

Either God can do everything which is within logical reason or the statement is simply wrong. And if these people stick to him being able to do everything, then raising moral issues is definitely in its place as I see it.

And as you say, pain is crucial for survival, but then again we are not God with the ability to create/design a Universe from nothing.

It's obvious to a real student of the Bible, or one who does any kind of serious reading of it, that God cannot do any and everything.
(Titus 1:2) . . .God, who cannot lie, promised . . .
(2 Chronicles 19:7) . . . with Jehovah our God there is no injustice, no partiality, no bribe-taking. . . (Deuteronomy 32:4)

So when one reads that nothing is impossible for God, they understand it in context with the rest of scripture.
Those who read the Bible with a priori / commitment to opposing it, will never understand anything in it... other than "Jesus wept."

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Runaway imagination combined with priming?



And to ignore that these experiences were primed and that distorts the results is also a bias.

Was Queen Wilhelmina (from the Wikipedia article I posted), “primed”? I doubt it…she fainted out of fear. She didn’t want to, or even expect, to see that!

I’ll grant you, that many of these incidents can be classified as hallucinations or outright hoaxes. I understand your claim of priming; it’s what many people - the majority? - want to believe, that their dead loved ones are ‘alive in another realm’. But Abraham Lincoln wasn’t a “loved one” of Queen Wilhelmina, or of Winston Churchill. Neither are these entities that Sgt Pepper (a current RF poster) has experienced and interacted with. As well as many other posters on here will attest to.

Are you going to claim all of these incidents are faked?
Actually, to support your POV, you need all of the tens of thousands of experiences across the globe to be fictitious. To support mine, I just need one to be genuine.

But because it is a desire of many, they’re “primed” as you put it, that’s precisely why this deception is so successful…
You see, in this regard I believe as you do: the dead “know nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5)”; they have ‘returned to the dust (Genesis 3:19; Psalms 146:3-4; Ecclesiastes 3:19-20)’. The dead (for now) are non-existent. (The only hope for them living again, is the Resurrection.)

But there are intelligent entities — identified in Jude 1:6, 2 Peter 2:4, etc.) who are wanting to mislead & misinform mankind. (Revelation 12:9). So they “imposter” the dead, they pretend to be the dead….but these events, like séances etc., always seem to be surrounded by ambiguity, don’t they? It’s never obvious to all, is it? (Lincoln’s apparition doesn’t appear to everyone.)
There’s a reason for that.

For instance, I can almost guarantee that they won’t manifest themselves as a dead person to you.

What would happen, say, if one of these entities appeared to you, an atheist, as an apparition of a loved one of yours who’d died (or just say, appeared as Abraham Lincoln) and spoke to you?

You would probably change your mind about being an atheist, and possibly be more open to searching for the spiritual side of yourself that all humans have within them.

But that is the last thing these spirit life forms / entities want! They are happy where you are at & what you believe. They’re afraid you might find out the truth about the Creator / God!

In some way or another, be it through false religious teachings or misapplied science, or even through materialism ie., keeping people too busy to search, they are expert at influencing people and keeping all of us confused, deceived or misinformed to some degree; some more, some less. It helps to strengthen caution & skepticism of dogmas in this world, when one recognizes their existence.

I can show you so many ways that the truth about our Creator, as outlined in the Bible, has been clouded, and hidden through outright lies! It really is amazing, when you look at all the evidence!

For example…
One form of this ‘interaction with the dead’, ancestor worship, is found in many different cultures. But the one characteristic that is shared & observed by all in these scenarios, is fear.
Now, why would a person *fear* their dead parents or grandparents?
Wouldn’t such dead ancestors, love their descendants? It is by reasoning on these facts and others, that has helped some people recognize that there are deceitful & harmful powers at work here, and they have turned to Jehovah to break free from this insidious slavery. I’ve met quite a few people who were raised in an “ancestor-worshipping” environment, and never once did any of them deny the power behind it, because they experienced it first-hand.

BTW, two of the Scripture links I provided, Jude 1:6 & 2 Peter 2:4, are referencing Genesis 6:1-4.
These events are the source material for the diverse Greek/Roman, Norse, Hindu, Chinese, Native American, etc. myths, whose common thread are gods having sex with women — “all whom they chose” — and producing offspring.

Im sure you think it’s all coincidences.
I think you - and all other atheists -believe in too many coincidences.

Take care, my cousin.

 

[Nimos]

You mean without nerves.
Would that not require disconnecting your brain?
A brainless human? Nope. That wouldn't work.
Besides, how would you feel the tender touch of your sweetheart, or the softness of a baby? How would you know you sat on the hot iron?

Nimos, you do come up with some really interesting things.

You didn't really answer my question So will try again. Why would you assume that God couldn't design humans differently if he wanted?

Besides that, the brain of a human doesn't feel pain, so at least part of a human is capable of that

The brain itself does not feel pain because there are no nociceptors located in brain tissue itself. This feature explains why neurosurgeons can operate on brain tissue without causing a patient discomfort, and, in some cases, can even perform surgery while the patient is awake.

Do tell... how do you make an "immune to pain" human?

First of all, I'm not God so that is not really my issue, but my suggestion would be a different design.

 

[Nimos]

It's obvious to a real student of the Bible, or one who does any kind of serious reading of it, that God cannot do any and everything.
(Titus 1:2) . . .God, who cannot lie, promised . . .
(2 Chronicles 19:7) . . . with Jehovah our God there is no injustice, no partiality, no bribe-taking. . . (Deuteronomy 32:4)

So when one reads that nothing is impossible for God, they understand it in context with the rest of scripture.
Those who read the Bible with a priori / commitment to opposing it, will never understand anything in it... other than "Jesus wept."

That is true, there are certain things God is said to not be able too.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I'm trying to figure out how man's mess is God's mistake.

It's not hard.

Consider an analogy.

You throw a party for a 4-year old kid. You invite all his little friends from school.
There's about a dozen of them in your home.
You then place 2 real grenades on the table and leave the room, leaving the children unsupervised.

They play with the grenades and they explode leaving most dead and the rest heavily wounded.

Who should be held responsible here and why?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I can understand one speaking with limited facts being guided by their emotions.
It's like the person who let's their emotions prevent them from making rational decisions. So they can't understand why someone would allow their child to have an operation that results in temporary pain. All they can see is the pain the child experiences. They don't see the reason for allowing that.

So parents who outlive their children need to go through that suffering, why?
You get a surgery to fix something that is broken or not working properly, to come out better.
If that is the analogy here, then explain please how having to go through the cruel suffering of witnessing your kid suffer through a cancer only to end up dead, achieves something similar.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Even if God weren't tri-omni, he still runs into problems why animals would need to suffer? They kill each other in some of the most brutal ways, sometimes taking a very long time.

God might have a beef with humans for whatever reason, but most humans at least would look at animals as being rather neutral or innocent beings. Again, if God designed it to be like this, doesn't that raise some questions regarding God's "personality"? And to some this might even be considered a much harder question to answer.

Just the other day I saw a rather uncensored documentary about crockodiles.
There was this one scene where some big dude caught a zebra. Pretty soon, 4 other crocks were in on it.
After some gruesome mistreatement and maiming by the first crock, the poor horsie basically simply exploded when the other 4 came in. Guts was flying everywhere. One of the most violent things I've ever seen to be honest.

It's kind of part of the kind of things I would expect by a world molded by an indifferent blind physical process.

Not really what I would expect from some all powerful entity that is moral perfection embodied.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Could be? Hmm. I'm interested. Go for it.
What's one mechanism?

Extra reflexes.
"BEEP BEEP BEEP" sounds that start playing in your head, perhaps with tone associated to certain body parts
Oders that free up from the cells when damaged a certain way
...

I'm sure an all powerful entity's imagination is quite bigger then mine also.

keeping in mind that there is also emotional pain.

Which only exists due to hormone stuff and the way brains work.

 

[F1fan]

It's obvious to a real student of the Bible, or one who does any kind of serious reading of it, that God cannot do any and everything.
(Titus 1:2) . . .God, who cannot lie, promised . . .
(2 Chronicles 19:7) . . . with Jehovah our God there is no injustice, no partiality, no bribe-taking. . . (Deuteronomy 32:4)

So when one reads that nothing is impossible for God, they understand it in context with the rest of scripture.
Those who read the Bible with a priori / commitment to opposing it, will never understand anything in it... other than "Jesus wept."

So to your way of thinking a "real" student of the Bibel, or one "serious" about reading it MUST assume a God exsts and the stories are true at face value for that sort of interretation.

That differs from my approach that admits there is no evidence for any God existing, and the history of how the Bible was written, edited, and translated HAS to be taken into account for what it is.

Your approach allows a believer to interpret the Bible as meaning anything they desire, not factually or objectively. My approach to any enquiry is the search for truth, not to reinforce and maintain established beliefs.

 

[nPeace]

You didn't really answer my question So will try again. Why would you assume that God couldn't design humans differently if he wanted?

I have not assumed anything.
The Bible tells us what a human is.
(Nehemiah 5:5) . . .we are of the same flesh and blood as our brothers, and our children are just like their children. . .
(1 Corinthians 15:50) . . .I tell you this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom, nor does corruption inherit incorruption. . .

We are made of corruptible material - matter.
Science tells you that.

Paul explained it quite clearly.
(1 Corinthians 15:39-40) 39 Not all flesh is the same flesh, but there is one of mankind, there is another flesh of cattle, another flesh of birds, and another of fish. 40 And there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies; but the glory of the heavenly bodies is one sort, and that of the earthly bodies is a different sort.

There is matter, and energy, according to scientists.
They are different.

Besides that, the brain of a human doesn't feel pain, so at least part of a human is capable of that

The brain itself does not feel pain because there are no nociceptors located in brain tissue itself. This feature explains why neurosurgeons can operate on brain tissue without causing a patient discomfort, and, in some cases, can even perform surgery while the patient is awake.

I don't recall saying the brain feels pain.
You cannot feel pain without the brain. It is the central unit that connects all receptors.

First of all, I'm not God so that is not really my issue, but my suggestion would be a different design.

You have no valid solution. Thank you.
You lost the case, and your argument. Case closed.

Therefore, you have no basis at all for questioning what God has done.

It's like when you say to us, we have no alternative to ToE. Therefore...
Although we have demonstrated that we do.

 

[nPeace]

It's not hard.

Consider an analogy.

You throw a party for a 4-year old kid. You invite all his little friends from school.
There's about a dozen of them in your home.
You then place 2 real grenades on the table and leave the room, leaving the children unsupervised.

They play with the grenades and they explode leaving most dead and the rest heavily wounded.

Who should be held responsible here and why?

I told you before, your analogies are so off, they always end up out in the ball park.
Adam and Eve cannot be compared to four year olds. and the tree of knowledge of good and bad, cannot be compared to a grenade.
Let's see if you know more than a four year old, and can figure out why.

...but let's for the sake of argument, make them four year olds.
How about the party for 4 year olds having cakes galore, but one cake is on the main table, and every four year old understands what it means to get their backside painted, if they disobey, and touch that cake, and I leave them to play, and enjoy themselves.
None of them can claim, well, you know, I was drunk, because the cakes do not contain alcohol, and there is only juice - orange juice, apple juice, and so on.

When they get their backside painted for eating any of that cake, how am I to blame.
Wait. Don't answer that.
Let me ask a 2 year old.
I don't want another disappointing response.

 

[nPeace]

So parents who outlive their children need to go through that suffering, why?

Everyone suffers, as far as I know. Not sure what you are asking.

You get a surgery to fix something that is broken or not working properly, to come out better.

...and it can result in quite a lot of pain, and discomfort.

If that is the analogy here, then explain please how having to go through the cruel suffering of witnessing your kid suffer through a cancer only to end up dead, achieves something similar.

God allows suffering temporarily, in order that the human race be freed from a defect, to live forever, without suffering, pain, or death.
Parents allow their child to experience temporary pain and discomfort, in order to remove a painful, or otherwise problematic defect.

Some don't even have a painful, or otherwise problematic defect. They just want to cut off their ding-a-ling, and replace it with something else... or vica versa.

 

[nPeace]

Extra reflexes.
"BEEP BEEP BEEP" sounds that start playing in your head, perhaps with tone associated to certain body parts
Oders that free up from the cells when damaged a certain way
...

I'm sure an all powerful entity's imagination is quite bigger then mine also.



Which only exists due to hormone stuff and the way brains work.

Not sure how that prevents suffering, but maybe you can explain.
However, isn't that the same as putting a chip in your brain that programs you to only do good? How does that give you free will?

 

[nPeace]

So to your way of thinking a "real" student of the Bibel, or one "serious" about reading it MUST assume a God exsts and the stories are true at face value for that sort of interretation.

No. That's a ?gullible and lazy person?
No Christian... excuse me... No true Christian assumes God exists and that the Bible is true.
They allow the evidence (evidence the Bible is both reliable, and trustworthy, and evidence life was created by an intelligent designer) to lead them and they follow that evidence where it leads. The evidence led them to the only reasonable and acceptable conclusion - God is.

That differs from my approach that admits there is no evidence for any God existing, and the history of how the Bible was written, edited, and translated HAS to be taken into account for what it is.

Well, we all have our beliefs. I won't tell you what I think, as to why you believe that.

Your approach allows a believer to interpret the Bible as meaning anything they desire, not factually or objectively. My approach to any enquiry is the search for truth, not to reinforce and maintain established beliefs.

You believe that.
I see no reason to beat you over the head, into submitting otherwise.

 

[Alien826]

That's a valid point.


Could be? Hmm. I'm interested. Go for it.
What's one mechanism? keeping in mind that there is also emotional pain.

Oops. I just realize you said "physical damage".
Yes. That's possible. A cyborg. I don't think that would be human though.
You guys have got me into the game though. I'm thinking hard.

I'm not sure it would have to involve mechanical parts as with a cyborg. We have to look at the function that pain serves. It warns us that something is damaging our body. Pain is so unpleasant that we then try to stop the damage in order to stop the pain. What we would need is a sensation that would be as compelling as pain. I'm not sure what that could be. Maybe with a change to the brain, so that a compulsion would be triggered that was as compelling as pain but involving less "suffering".

Actually, pain is effective, but has its problems. A lot of pain can overwhelm our critical faculties, making the resolution of the problem less likely. Pain is still felt when no solution is possible, such as when a whole limb is torn off. Learning to cope with the loss is inhibited by the pain, which we don't need to recognize that the limb has gone.

Just some random thoughts.

 

[Alien826]

You mean without nerves.
Would that not require disconnecting your brain?
A brainless human? Nope. That wouldn't work.
Besides, how would you feel the tender touch of your sweetheart, or the softness of a baby? How would you know you sat on the hot iron?

I looked this up as I realized I wasn't sure whether pain nerves were separate from nerves that register other sensations. It turns out it's all very complicated, and some pain can be generated by damage to the nerves themselves. I don't think it would be necessary to remove all nerves though. Some people are unable to feel pain, and also they can't sweat. It's called CIPA (Congenital insensitivity to pain and anhydrosis). These people have problems with their nerves such that they can't feel pain or temperature. Of course they have problems, as they could indeed, and do, sit on hot irons with feeling pain. They have lots of other problems too. Here's a link if you are interested.

Symptoms, Causes, and Expectations of CIPA Disease

The point is that nerves can exist that don't transmit pain sensations. It would require a redesign to our nerves so they didn't transmit pain and functioned in all other ways, but it wouldn't require having no nerves as you suggest.

 

[Alien826]

By the way, you think just like Jose Fly.
That third question is one he also asked.
If I didn't know better, I'd think that you were his double from another dimension.

You know I had to look that up.

Yes, we seem to agree on some things. It's probably that we have both been part of this kind of discussion for so long that we see a certain pattern in it all.

I'll mention it to him next time I visit our home dimension.

 

[Nimos]

You have no valid solution. Thank you.
You lost the case, and your argument. Case closed.

Therefore, you have no basis at all for questioning what God has done.

The solution would be to simply not have it. Who says that humans should look like we do now or that anything had to be like it is now, couldn't God have created a completely different type of Universe if he wanted?

You don't answer my question, it's pretty much just a yes or no question

 

[nPeace]

I looked this up as I realized I wasn't sure whether pain nerves were separate from nerves that register other sensations. It turns out it's all very complicated, and some pain can be generated by damage to the nerves themselves. I don't think it would be necessary to remove all nerves though. Some people are unable to feel pain, and also they can't sweat. It's called CIPA (Congenital insensitivity to pain and anhydrosis). These people have problems with their nerves such that they can't feel pain or temperature. Of course they have problems, as they could indeed, and do, sit on hot irons with feeling pain. They have lots of other problems too. Here's a link if you are interested.

Symptoms, Causes, and Expectations of CIPA Disease

The point is that nerves can exist that don't transmit pain sensations. It would require a redesign to our nerves so they didn't transmit pain and functioned in all other ways, but it wouldn't require having no nerves as you suggest.

As I suggested? I thought I said it would require disconnecting your brain.
I thought for a moment I was going senile.

The brain is like a CPU (central processing unit).
One needs the brain for the nerves to send messages.
The underdeveloped sensory nerves cannot send messages to your brain about pain and temperature. For example, your brain tells your autonomic nervous system to make you sweat, but the message is not received.

So you agree that not feeling pain does not end suffering, becase if I burn a hole in my hand because I grabbed a piece of lead that's red hot, that would cause me so much trauma... not to mention if I ripped loose my arm.

Your article says such persons can get infections or have injuries that don't heal because they do not instinctively care for them and try to protect them from things that would cause more pain.
That's suffering, isn't it?