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Atheists/Agnostics/Skeptics! What are your sources of knowledge?

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
No, paarsurrey. It is your understanding of the very word "knowledge" that has bewildered you. You simply don't understand what knowledge mean, and your evasiveness in supplying a definition to knowledge when others have asked you for one, prove your ignorance.

And the Qur'an doesn't say ANYTHING AT ALL, about supporting other knowledge.

Can you quote verses from the Qur'an in which it supported other (non-religious) knowledge?

Or are you going to evade this question or request too?

Quran does not claim to be a dictionary of words or definitions. It mentions what is required by the humans for guidance in the ethical moral and spiritual domains. Truth is knowledge and conjecture doe not lead one to 100% certainty:

The Holy Quran : Chapter 53: Al-Najm

[53:29]But they have no knowledge thereof. They follow nothing but conjecture; and conjecture avails naught against truth.

The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online

Regarads
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
So, you are saying that you are shaping your understanding of the meaning of "knowledge" so that it fits that Sura?
 

gnostic

The Lost One
paarsurrey said:
Quran does not claim to be a dictionary of words or definitions.

No one were asking you what the Qur'an's definition for "knowledge" is, paarsurrey.

They were asking you if you knew what "knowledge" mean.

And I am asking you knew what "knowledge" or "accuracy" mean?

But I did ask you provide examples in the Qur'an verses, in which YOU had claimed that the Qur'an support all knowledge. Here, I will quote my question again from post 160:

gnostic said:
Can you quote verses from the Qur'an in which it supported other (non-religious) knowledge?

This quote above is not asking for definition(s) on knowledge from the Qur'an. You have misunderstood my post (post 160).
 

kidkunjer

New Member
No, actually, you don't know that you're experiencing anything, at least not to any degree of absolute certainty, that's the point. For all you know, you might just be a very complex computer program that is programmed to respond to "stimuli". You could be part of someone's very elaborate dream. You just don't know, that's why rational people don't judge the world in terms of absolute certainty, that simply isn't possible.

It doesn't matter. If i am part of someones dream, then that dream is what makes up my reality. I still know i am, and am experiencing. If i am a complex computer program that includes a consciousness (it must to be me as i do not simply "respond to stimuli") then that computer program is me and i still know that i am, and am experiencing.
Its interesting to me though that you think one could be replaced by a computer that simply "responds to stimuli". is that what you experience yourself as doing? if so, that would suggest to me that you are in fact not conscious in the traditional sense.

Further, while you do have experiences, one thing that I don't see theists ever question is the *SOURCE* of those experiences. You cannot draw a direct causal link between the actual experience and the actual cause of the experience.

Absolutely correct. i agree 100%.

You claim a cause without being able to demonstrate a cause. Therefore, you don't know what you are experiencing, you are claiming to know what you are experiencing but you do so without evidence, logic or reason. You do it because the claim makes you feel good. That is not a good measure of truth.

I don't claim a cause. for all i know it exists in a state of causelessess. Please don't lump me in with theists, i'm not one.

I don't know the cause of what I am experiencing, ie the source, but i do know the content of my experiences.
I am not claiming to know what the source is of what I'm experiencing
And i never make any claims without evidence, logic or reason.

So once we throw absolute certainty out the window as a ridiculous standard, we have to start measuring the most reasonable explanations for our experiences. We have to start looking at what we really understand about the world around us right this minute and provisionally select causes that match up with that understanding, realizing that as we learn more, we might have to re-evaluate our positions. Beliefs don't do that, they take positions that are emotionally satisfying to the believer as absolute, unchangeable truth, whether they can be justified as such or not. I don't know what your definition of terms is, I just know how to rationally evaluate positions and keep emotions out of the equation because emotions don't actually prove anything.

Now who's choosing to believe things because they make you feel good? I think you're projecting.
Beliefs are not unchangeable, people change them all the time, especially if they believe in something that underlies those other beliefs, with greater fervor. For example, A christian who may initially believe in evolution, may shift on that position when they are shown that it contradicts the biblical account.
If you throw absolute certainty out the window as unknowable (which it isn't, but mostly indescribable) you set yourself up on a path of following the arbitrary. A conclusion is only as good as its axioms. S.I.S.O.
Throwing out absolute certainty is fundamentally giving up on truth and choosing to live in a fiction of your own (or worse someone else's) construction. its saying "sod it, i'll take blue pill."
 

Cephus

Relentlessly Rational
It doesn't matter. If i am part of someones dream, then that dream is what makes up my reality. I still know i am, and am experiencing. If i am a complex computer program that includes a consciousness (it must to be me as i do not simply "respond to stimuli") then that computer program is me and i still know that i am, and am experiencing.

But you don't know that, you could have no consciousness and everything that you "experience" could be part of a very complicated script. Even questioning your own consciousness could be pre-written. Every thought you've ever had in your life, no matter what it is, was written by some entity. At that level of complexity, how would you know the difference?

Its interesting to me though that you think one could be replaced by a computer that simply "responds to stimuli". is that what you experience yourself as doing? if so, that would suggest to me that you are in fact not conscious in the traditional sense.

No, I'm saying that if you were part of a computer that exactly replicated everything you see and do perfectly, you'd have no way of telling the difference.

I don't claim a cause. for all i know it exists in a state of causelessess. Please don't lump me in with theists, i'm not one.

I'm not lumping anyone in with anyone else, people can give their own takes on things.

I don't know the cause of what I am experiencing, ie the source, but i do know the content of my experiences.
I am not claiming to know what the source is of what I'm experiencing
And i never make any claims without evidence, logic or reason.

You know the output of your experiences. You see the input, you see the processing, you see the output. You really can't say for certain where any of those things come from, you simply assume, as we all do, that you have an independent consciousness. That's not a demonstrated assumption. Of course, we all do it because we have to do it, as I've said before, there are assumptions that we all have to make to make sense of the world around us, but that doesn't demonstrate the assumptions are factually true.

Now who's choosing to believe things because they make you feel good? I think you're projecting.

Not remotely true. I care about what is true, regardless of how it makes me feel. The most comforting lie is still a lie and the most uncomfortable truth is still the truth. I want the truth, regardless of how it makes me feel.

Beliefs are not unchangeable, people change them all the time, especially if they believe in something that underlies those other beliefs, with greater fervor. For example, A christian who may initially believe in evolution, may shift on that position when they are shown that it contradicts the biblical account.

Of course beliefs are not unchangeable. I was once a Christian. Now I am not. However, chang beliefs requires effort and without that effort, without that desire to believe as many true things and reject as many false things as possible, belief won't change because there is no impetus to change. People will never change their beliefs if their beliefs are never challenged.

If you throw absolute certainty out the window as unknowable (which it isn't, but mostly indescribable) you set yourself up on a path of following the arbitrary. A conclusion is only as good as its axioms. S.I.S.O.

Wrong. Please present any case where absolute certainty is a possibility and be prepared to defend it against all possibilities. It can't be done.

Throwing out absolute certainty is fundamentally giving up on truth and choosing to live in a fiction of your own (or worse someone else's) construction. its saying "sod it, i'll take blue pill."

No, it's accepting that truth is about current knowledge and not about picking one position and holding it forever and ever and ever. As we learn more, we may have to change our view. That's one good reason to keep learning, to keep getting incrementally closer to the truth. We may never have it but we can approximate it as best we can. Pretending that you have the truth and it can never be changed is living a fiction.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
But you don't know that, you could have no consciousness and everything that you "experience" could be part of a very complicated script. Even questioning your own consciousness could be pre-written. Every thought you've ever had in your life, no matter what it is, was written by some entity. At that level of complexity, how would you know the difference?
That's why too "Matrix" to me.

It sounds like either (over-imaginative) fantasy or delusion, depending on if your perspective or psychosis.
 

Cephus

Relentlessly Rational
That's why too "Matrix" to me.

It sounds like either (over-imaginative) fantasy or delusion, depending on if your perspective or psychosis.

While I think people who subscribe to the whole Matrix thing are kind of bonkers, we have to admit that, in the realm of extreme possibilities, it isn't something that can be totally dismissed. It isn't impossible, just highly improbable.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
While I think people who subscribe to the whole Matrix thing are kind of bonkers, we have to admit that, in the realm of extreme possibilities, it isn't something that can be totally dismissed. It isn't impossible, just highly improbable.

It is great sci-fi and imagination, but that's all it is.

The only thing that come near to controlling the scripts of people, come from churches and Islam, and from some governments. They each attempt to control people's lives through fear, intimidation and indoctrination.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
We may never have it but we can approximate it as best we can. Pretending that you have the truth and it can never be changed is living a fiction.

When one enters the Truth; then one's journey in Truth begins, and it is a never-ending journey.
And that is absolute Truth.

Regards
 

Cephus

Relentlessly Rational
It is great sci-fi and imagination, but that's all it is.

The first movie was, the other two... no comment.

The only thing that come near to controlling the scripts of people, come from churches and Islam, and from some governments. They each attempt to control people's lives through fear, intimidation and indoctrination.

Which in extreme examples is exactly true. However, I'm willing to give most people the benefit of the doubt that they can talk about the things they believe intelligently and most of the time, with the exception of the radicals and fanatics, that's true. However, for most serious theists, I find that there is a point, and it's different for everyone, beyond which they absolutely will not budge. Beyond that point, it hits the core of their self-identity, if they lose those beliefs, they fear, mostly subconsciously, that they will lose who they are. They've wrapped their entire being around these beliefs and a lot of that comes from childhood indoctrination, when they were vulnerable to such things. That's why the religious want to get them young, because it is so much harder to form that impenetrable wall around these core beliefs as an adult.
 

kidkunjer

New Member
But you don't know that, you could have no consciousness and everything that you "experience" could be part of a very complicated script. Even questioning your own consciousness could be pre-written. Every thought you've ever had in your life, no matter what it is, was written by some entity. At that level of complexity, how would you know the difference?

because its not about complexity, its about volition, its about what i am, not what i do.

You know the output of your experiences. You see the input, you see the processing, you see the output. You really can't say for certain where any of those things come from, you simply assume, as we all do, that you have an independent consciousness.

independent? that's just a judgement such as the boundary between red and orange. I don't claim independent consciousness in any real sense. It's just a way of talking for ease of communication. I don't know that much about it, for all i know you could be nothing but a figment or a construction of my mind. I don't know you have a mind, but i know i do.

Not remotely true. I care about what is true, regardless of how it makes me feel. The most comforting lie is still a lie and the most uncomfortable truth is still the truth. I want the truth, regardless of how it makes me feel.

I'm sorry, but i don't believe you.

Of course beliefs are not unchangeable. I was once a Christian. Now I am not. However, chang beliefs requires effort and without that effort, without that desire to believe as many true things and reject as many false things as possible, belief won't change because there is no impetus to change. People will never change their beliefs if their beliefs are never challenged.

it depends what you mean by challenged. All beliefs are constantly challenged by reality.

Wrong. Please present any case where absolute certainty is a possibility and be prepared to defend it against all possibilities. It can't be done.

Just because you can use language to deny it, doesn't make it uncertain. You are either not conscious, or you know you are conscious and are lying, possibly even to yourself. Which is ironic because you need consciousness to do it.
There is something there at the heart of me which observes, and chooses, is indivisible, and is me.
 

Cephus

Relentlessly Rational
because its not about complexity, its about volition, its about what i am, not what i do.

But what you are, except at the biological level, is your choice. You choose who you want to be. Until technology gives us the ability to change things at the genetic level, that's how it works.

independent? that's just a judgement such as the boundary between red and orange. I don't claim independent consciousness in any real sense. It's just a way of talking for ease of communication. I don't know that much about it, for all i know you could be nothing but a figment or a construction of my mind. I don't know you have a mind, but i know i do.

If you're not arguing for an independent consciousness then why have the discussion at all? It just makes you a program, running on a hyper-advanced computer, that has no function beyond its programming.

I'm sorry, but i don't believe you.

That's up to you, it doesn't change the reality though.

it depends what you mean by challenged. All beliefs are constantly challenged by reality.

Only if one pays attention to reality. There are still people out there who are supremely convinced that the Earth is flat and no evidence to the contrary will ever convince them otherwise. These are people who are not interested in the real world where it interferes with their religious beliefs.

Just because you can use language to deny it, doesn't make it uncertain. You are either not conscious, or you know you are conscious and are lying, possibly even to yourself. Which is ironic because you need consciousness to do it.
There is something there at the heart of me which observes, and chooses, is indivisible, and

I'm sure there was something more there that just didn't come through. You've set up a binary system where one, by definition, must be true, like being either dead or alive. But that isn't showing that you can be absolutely certain of one of them. You cannot be absolutely certain that you are conscious, for instance. Maybe you're dreaming. Prove otherwise.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
As to your other half of your reply:

This verse doesn't speak of knowledge from non-religious sources.


The Holy Quran : Chapter 2: Al-Baqarah

[2:201]And when you have performed the acts of worship prescribed for you, celebrate the praises of Allah as you celebrated the praises of your fathers, or even more than that. And of men there are some who say, ‘Our Lord, grant usgood thingsin this world;’ and such a one shall have no share in the Hereafter.
[2:202]And of them there are some who say: ‘Our Lord, grant us good in this world as well as good in the world to come, and protect us from the torment of the Fire.’
[2:203]For these there shall be agoodlyshare because of what they have earned. And Allah is swift at reckoning.

The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online


Both are essential.

Regards
 

kidkunjer

New Member
But what you are, except at the biological level, is your choice. You choose who you want to be. Until technology gives us the ability to change things at the genetic level, that's how it works.

I don't understand what you're saying here... either that or you haven't understood what i'm saying.

If you're not arguing for an independent consciousness then why have the discussion at all? It just makes you a program, running on a hyper-advanced computer, that has no function beyond its programming.

No it doesn't. I think there is a confusion over the word "independent". As a consciousness, i choose that is to say my thoughts are not determined by a boss system. I may be part of a larger system that operates in a non-hierarchical way, or i may be at the top of that system. but my choices (the ability to make them) is not in doubt. that's what it means to be conscious, to chose and to perceive. It seems to me that perception is largely a function of choice, or really they are two words for one indivisible thing.

That's up to you, it doesn't change the reality though.

What i meant by that is that there must be a reason why you want to argue against the knowledge that (assuming you're conscious) you must have. I think its likely that the reason you're trying to argue against the certainty of certainties is because you find it uncomfortable that in comparison to that certainty your held beliefs seem flimsy. If there is no such thing as certainty, then it justifies believing in "it sort of kind of feels like it" kind of things.
ie. you are only comically arguing against your consciousness in order to bolster beliefs you hold in some other arena. I'm guessing something along the lines of naturalism, materialism, newtonian physics, cause and effect etc. you like those things perhaps because it gives you a sense of comfort in "knowing" that the world is nice ordered and clean.
It's not.
Of course all this is purely speculation, i have no idea if any of that is true, but i suggest before reacting against it, consider it for a few days and see if its more accurate than insulting.

Only if one pays attention to reality. There are still people out there who are supremely convinced that the Earth is flat and no evidence to the contrary will ever convince them otherwise. These are people who are not interested in the real world where it interferes with their religious beliefs.

Absolutely correct. If only you (not personally but people in general) could see how this applies to their own set of beliefs we'd be laughing.


I'm sure there was something more there that just didn't come through.

yeah i can't remember what i was saying there.

You've set up a binary system where one, by definition, must be true, like being either dead or alive. But that isn't showing that you can be absolutely certain of one of them. You cannot be absolutely certain that you are conscious, for instance. Maybe you're dreaming. Prove otherwise.

For a start i would say that you've perhaps misunderstood what i mean by conscious. I would argue that you (I) am conscious whilst i dream. What is this binary system? what are the two alternatives and what do they mean?

I cannot prove to you that i am conscious, just as i cannot prove that you are conscious. Because we cannot break the first person perspective barrier. from my FPP i KNOW that i'm conscious, just as you do (if you are).
 

Cephus

Relentlessly Rational
I don't understand what you're saying here... either that or you haven't understood what i'm saying.

You can't control what's in your genes, at least not yet, but you can control everything else.

No it doesn't. I think there is a confusion over the word "independent". As a consciousness, i choose that is to say my thoughts are not determined by a boss system. I may be part of a larger system that operates in a non-hierarchical way, or i may be at the top of that system. but my choices (the ability to make them) is not in doubt. that's what it means to be conscious, to chose and to perceive. It seems to me that perception is largely a function of choice, or really they are two words for one indivisible thing.

Perception isn't a matter of choice but of biology. You see what your eyes see, your brain interprets those signals. What you decide to think about those signals is up to you, of course, but the images you receive are objective, you see what is, limited only by the mechanisms in your biology.

What i meant by that is that there must be a reason why you want to argue against the knowledge that (assuming you're conscious) you must have. I think its likely that the reason you're trying to argue against the certainty of certainties is because you find it uncomfortable that in comparison to that certainty your held beliefs seem flimsy. If there is no such thing as certainty, then it justifies believing in "it sort of kind of feels like it" kind of things.

You disagreed with me when I said that I cared about what was actually true, not what felt good to believe was true. I don't care about comfort at all. What is, is. How it makes me feel is irrelevant. As an example, I have honestly run into people who absolutely reject the idea that the Holocaust ever happened because the mere thought of it makes them feel so awful that they cannot handle it and they'd rather pretend that it could never have happened at all. I think they said the same thing about 9/11. That's really kind of foolish. Your feelings on a subject have no bearing whatsoever on the reality of the subject. There are people who accept or reject reality because of how reality makes them feel and those people have issues. Reality exists entirely independently of your feelings about it.

ie. you are only comically arguing against your consciousness in order to bolster beliefs you hold in some other arena. I'm guessing something along the lines of naturalism, materialism, newtonian physics, cause and effect etc. you like those things perhaps because it gives you a sense of comfort in "knowing" that the world is nice ordered and clean.
It's not.

I'm not arguing against consciousness at all, I have no idea where you got that from. At best, I'm saying that consciousness has no effect on objective reality, you are simply observing what is, you are not affecting what is.

Absolutely correct. If only you (not personally but people in general) could see how this applies to their own set of beliefs we'd be laughing.

But of course, that's not the case. Rational people act to remove their own biases from the study of reality as much as possible, or at the very least, to recognize those biases and keep them from unduly impacting conclusions drawn about reality. What I think about the world doesn't matter and it doesn't influence what the world actually is.

For a start i would say that you've perhaps misunderstood what i mean by conscious. I would argue that you (I) am conscious whilst i dream. What is this binary system? what are the two alternatives and what do they mean?

That there are two alternatives and one of them must be true. If one is false, the other, by definition, must be true. Most systems are not so well defined. In most systems with multiple options, the true answer must be independently verified as being true, not simply assumed to be true.

Unfortunately, it seems to me that you've just set up a system whereby the only way not to be conscious is to be dead, which seems a bit extreme to me.

I cannot prove to you that i am conscious, just as i cannot prove that you are conscious. Because we cannot break the first person perspective barrier. from my FPP i KNOW that i'm conscious, just as you do (if you are).

But you've largely just said that so long as you are alive and your brain is functioning, you are conscious, therefore, by your own seeming definition, you can prove you are conscious just by remaining alive. I don't see your definition making things any easier, sorry.
 
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