Atheists and Agnostics - you're missing all the fun!!

[hornsby]

Brigham Young was wrong. That does not make all, or even most, Mormons racist. Furthermore, even though there was definitely once a racist policy in place, you really know very little about why the policy was actually changed. Now could we please get back on topic. If you wish to bash my faith, at least be courteous enough to the OP to start your own thread.

i am very on topic

the op states that non believers are missing out on all the fun.... i am asking how being a mormon is any fun when you are following a religion that was plagued by poligamy and racism.

of course your problem goes deeper than that, because you have to either admit that your religion and your prophets were wrong, or that your god was wrong.....obviously you admitted that your religion and prophets were wrong... so where does that leave you then? following a religion with a trackreckord of being wrong... since the religious policies made by the prophets through supposed divine revelations are wrong, how do you know that they are not wrong now??? how do you know that current and future revelations will not be false?? you look back at early mormons and know they were misguided, how do you know that 100 years from now future mormons will not judge you as misguided?? you are following a false religion. that is what i am pointing out to you.... and IT IS NO FUN AT ALL as the OP would have us believe

 

[ImmortalFlame]

And which rather large group did I stereotype?

People who criticize religious belief.

 

[Revoltingest]

i am very on topic
the op states that non believers are missing out on all the fun.... i am asking how being a mormon is any fun when you are following a religion that was plagued by poligamy and racism.
of course your problem goes deeper than that, because you have to either admit that your religion and your prophets were wrong, or that your god was wrong.....obviously you admitted that your religion and prophets were wrong... so where does that leave you then? following a religion with a trackreckord of being wrong... since the religious policies made by the prophets through supposed divine revelations are wrong, how do you know that they are not wrong now??? how do you know that current and future revelations will not be false?? you look back at early mormons and know they were misguided, how do you know that 100 years from now future mormons will not judge you as misguided?? you are following a false religion. that is what i am pointing out to you.... and IT IS NO FUN AT ALL as the OP would have us believe

This is venturing into proselytizing territory. Sure, sure, a religion will be loopy.
All are. But dang, man...we needn't harshly attack one's faith as "false".

 

[hornsby]

This is venturing into proselytizing territory. Sure, sure, a religion will be loopy.
All are. But dang, man...we needn't harshly attack one's faith as "false".

what are you talking about? i am merely presenting historical facts. katzpur agrees that mormon church leaders/prophets were wrong and their revelations were false.

since when is calling a spade a spade proselytizing or a "harsh attack"? it is what it is. history proves it, mormons admit it.

 

[Revoltingest]

what are you talking about? i am merely presenting historical facts. katzpur agrees that mormon church leaders were wrong and revelations were false.
since when is calling a spade a spade proselytizing or a "harsh attack"? it is what it is. history proves it, mormons admit it.

You said this....
"....you are following a false religion."
It is not an historical fact. It strikes me as cruel.
I sympathize, since I find all religious beliefs to be illusions, but consider the feelings of the believer, who might be a
fine person & otherwise rational. (Note how many of them politely tolerate my reprobation & spiritual emptiness.)

 

[hornsby]

You said this....
"....you are following a false religion."
It is not an historical fact. It strikes me as cruel.

the mormon religion is founded on certain beliefs and pillars, which are set in place through divine revelation...... we now know, and mormons agree, that certain revelations were wrong/false. this means that either god was wrong and later changed his mind, or that the prophets who established the mormon religion were wrong/false.

cruel or not, its fact.

 

[Revoltingest]

what are you talking about? i am merely presenting historical facts. katzpur agrees that mormon church leaders/prophets were wrong and their revelations were false.
since when is calling a spade a spade proselytizing or a "harsh attack"? it is what it is. history proves it, mormons admit it.

It occurs to me that you might ask Katzy about how she addresses evolution (no offense intended by that word)
of her faith, & what she believes. She seems the type who would directly answer challenging questions. I think
she might have even done so before. (So many posts....who can remember'm all...)

 

[Alceste]

And more often than not, it's based on misconceptions and half-truths perpetrated by the ignorant, and encouraging further ignorance. You know me, Alceste, well enough to know how much I detest stereotyping and prejudice based on someone's religious affiliation. I don't care if it's directed at me or at somebody else.

Sometimes that's true and sometimes it isn't, but in contrast, criticism on the basis of skin colour is never intelligent or fair.

I oppose discrimination on the basis of religion, but without forfeiting my obligation to criticize what l feel to be a generally destructive ideology.

 

[Revoltingest]

Can you really? I ask because I'm not all that sure it's a choice. I can and have choosen Mormonism over Lutheranism and Catholicism and Presbyterianism, but I don't think I could actually choose not to believe in God. I've actually tried to talk myself into believing that He's just a figment of my imagination, but I just can't do it. I'm not all that convinced that you could choose to believe in Him when His existence simply doesn't seem reasonable to you. Can you turn belief off and on like you can a water faucet, just because somebody tells you your eternal soul is at stake?

I don't see much room for choice either.

 

[hornsby]

It occurs to me that you might ask Katzy about how she addresses evolution (no offense intended by that word)
of her faith, & what she believes. She seems the type who would directly answer challenging questions. I think
she might have even done so before. (So many posts....who can remember'm all...)

listen, if i claim that god has GIVEN ME MULTIPLE REVELATIONS, including that we should have multiple wives and discriminate against blacks, and start a religion based on my revelations...., and it later turns out that at least some of my revelations were WRONG/FALSE, then the religion i invented based on my false revelations is FALSE.

 

[Katzpur]

People who criticize religious belief.

Actually, I didn't. My statement was that criticisms are frequently "based on misconceptions and half-truths perpetrated by the ignorant." That is absolutely the truth. When I read some of the far-fetched things Mormons supposedly believe, I can't possibly conclude that these statements were made by someone who has made a truly informed decision about the faith. Inaccurate information, particularly when disseminated by someone who hasn't bothered to get his facts straight, does lead to ignorance. And ignorance leads to contempt. That is not stereotyping "everyone who criticizes religion belief."

 

[Revoltingest]

And ignorance leads to contempt.

Hey! I take issue with that one, girly!
I'd say a predisposition towards hubris & incivility leads to contempt.

I gotta stick up for us ignorant folk.

 

[Katzpur]

i am very on topic

No, you aren't, and you know you aren't. The OP made a very general statement and invited debate as to whether theists or atheists have the most fun. She made no reference to her religious affiliation. This thread is not about whether Mormonism is true or false.

the op states that non believers are missing out on all the fun.... i am asking how being a mormon is any fun when you are following a religion that was plagued by poligamy and racism.

Well, for starers, you might point out where I described Mormonism as being "fun." I would describe Mormonism as being "uplifting, ennobling, comforting, fulfilling, sustaining, satisfying, gratifying, nourishing, enriching, fortifying" and a great many other things. I have never described it as "fun." I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised if your life was more "fun" than mine. I doubt you're missing out on any fun at all. As a matter of fact, I suspect you're having a whole lot more fun right now than I am.

As to the "plagues" you refer to, I don't see the revelance of either of these things to whether my life is any more or less fun than yours.

of course your problem goes deeper than that, because you have to either admit that your religion and your prophets were wrong, or that your god was wrong.

Except that my problem appears to be entirely in your head.

...obviously you admitted that your religion and prophets were wrong... so where does that leave you then?

I have never claimed that any LDS prophet was infallible. It's certainly not as if I "admitted" to anything I had at any time denied. So where does the fact that I'm a member of a church which is overseen by mere human beings leave me? It leaves me an infinitely more compassionate, open-minded, caring person than I would otherwise be. It leaves me believing that we're all sons and daughters of the same God who loves each and every one of us.

following a religion with a trackreckord of being wrong... since the religious policies made by the prophets through supposed divine revelations are wrong, how do you know that they are not wrong now??? how do you know that current and future revelations will not be false?? you look back at early mormons and know they were misguided, how do you know that 100 years from now future mormons will not judge you as misguided??

Human beings make mistakes, hornsby. That's a fact of life. There is no institution, religious or otherwise, that is free from flaws caused by human decision making.

you are following a false religion. that is what i am pointing out to you...

No, you're pointing out to me that you believe my religion to be false. You don't make a distinction between revealed truth and man-made policy. I do.

and IT IS NO FUN AT ALL as the OP would have us believe

Well, as I already said, whether it's "fun" or not is beside the point. I wasn't looking for "fun" when I made my decision to practice my religion.

 

[Katzpur]

what are you talking about? i am merely presenting historical facts. katzpur agrees that mormon church leaders/prophets were wrong and their revelations were false.

Don't be putting words into my mouth, hornsby. There never was a revelation restricting men of African ancestory from holding the priesthood. There was a decision made by men who were a product of a time and place where racism was, unfortunately, the norm. Not every policy ever instituted in the LDS Church is a result of revelation.

since when is calling a spade a spade proselytizing or a "harsh attack"? it is what it is. history proves it, mormons admit it.

No. I haven't admitted anything you've accused me of admitting. You're putting your own spin on what I actually said.

 

[Katzpur]

listen, if i claim that god has GIVEN ME MULTIPLE REVELATIONS, including that we should have multiple wives and discriminate against blacks, and start a religion based on my revelations...., and it later turns out that at least some of my revelations were WRONG/FALSE, then the religion i invented based on my false revelations is FALSE.

Hornsby, when you can calm down and stop frothing at the mouth, get back to me, okay? You're making some assumptions based on incomplete information, but unless you actually want to get your facts straight, we are essentially at an impasse.

 

[Katzpur]

Hey! I take issue with that one, girly!

Well I'd certainly expect to get a little bit of backlash from you, Revoltingest. You know how much I love you, though, so it's all good.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Actually, I didn't. My statement was that criticisms are frequently "based on misconceptions and half-truths perpetrated by the ignorant." That is absolutely the truth.

You said most criticism of religion is is "perpetrated by the ignorant". From my experience, most criticism of religion is fairly reasonable. There's a lot of unreasonable stuff out there, but you're painting with a fairly broad brush.

When I read some of the far-fetched things Mormons supposedly believe, I can't possibly conclude that these statements were made by someone who has made a truly informed decision about the faith. Inaccurate information, particularly when disseminated by someone who hasn't bothered to get his facts straight, does lead to ignorance. And ignorance leads to contempt. That is not stereotyping "everyone who criticizes religion belief."

Again, didn't say "everyone". You said most criticism of religion comes from people who were "ignorant". If I said "Most Mormons are ignorant", you'd assume it was an unfair stereotype. So why is it any more acceptable for you to use as broad language when referring to people who are critical of religion?

Admittedly, I'm probably using too broad a definition of the word "stereotype" here, but I still feel that there's a kind of prejudice present.

 

[Katzpur]

You said most criticism of religion is is "perpetrated by the ignorant". From my experience, most criticism of religion is fairly reasonable. There's a lot of unreasonable stuff out there, but you're painting with a fairly broad brush.

Perhaps I should be more specific then. I don't know whether "most people" who are prejudiced against "religious people" are "ignorant" (i.e. uninformed about the specific religion) or not. What I do know and was attempting to say is that most of the criticisms of Mormonism come from people who have come to conclusions about the faith without really putting much, if any, effort into actually getting their facts straight. Since I know very well what Mormons believe, it's irritating to be told that Mormons believe something entirely different. Since I have a far more in-depth knowledge of early Mormon history, it's annoying to have someone recount events to me which, in fact, never took place as described. As a lifelong practicing Mormon who is not afraid to discuss the "hard stuff," and to do so honestly, I am offended by people who insist that I am either lying or uninformed about my religion, its doctrines, its history and its culture. There is nothing wrong with a lack of knowledge. We're all knowledgable about some things and utterly clueless about others. But, as Martin Luther King pointed out, "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity."

Admittedly, I'm probably using too broad a definition of the word "stereotype" here, but I still feel that there's a kind of prejudice present.

If there is, I apologize.

 

[LemonGrenade]

You said most criticism of religion is is "perpetrated by the ignorant". From my experience, most criticism of religion is fairly reasonable.

Sorry to wade in. Ignorant and reasonable are not mutually exclusive. One can draw conclusions which are reasonable given the facts he possesses but this does not mean that he is in possession of all the facts. As Leary said of those seeking to opine on the controversial mushroom; those who have indulged are disqualified by the subjective experience, and those who haven’t are disqualified by not having done so.

I love this little cow

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Perhaps I should be more specific then. I don't know whether "most people" who are prejudiced against "religious people" are "ignorant" (i.e. uninformed about the specific religion) or not. What I do know and was attempting to say is that most of the criticisms of Mormonism come from people who have come to conclusions about the faith without really putting much, if any, effort into actually getting their facts straight.

I've not really had much experience of critiques of the Mormon belief system beyond that one South Park episode, so I'm not really informed enough there to say one way or the other.

Since I know very well what Mormons believe, it's irritating to be told that Mormons believe something entirely different. Since I have a far more in-depth knowledge of early Mormon history, it's annoying to have someone recount events to me which, in fact, never took place as described. As a lifelong practicing Mormon who is not afraid to discuss the "hard stuff," and to do so honestly, I am offended by people who insist that I am either lying or uninformed about my religion, its doctrines, its history and its culture. There is nothing wrong with a lack of knowledge. We're all knowledgable about some things and utterly clueless about others. But, as Martin Luther King pointed out, "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity."

Well, if your issue is specifically with how people criticize Mormonism, like I said above I can't really comment on whether or not there is a lot of criticism of it that is ignorant or otherwise. I was only really concerned if you were saying that was true of people who criticize religion in general. I apologize for my misapprehension.

Sorry to wade in. Ignorant and reasonable are not mutually exclusive. One can draw conclusions which are reasonable given the facts he possesses but this does not mean that he is in possession of all the facts. As Leary said of those seeking to opine on the controversial mushroom; those who have indulged are disqualified by the subjective experience, and those who haven’t are disqualified by not having done so.

You've got a good point, there. This is the problem with being too general with my usage of certain words, I suppose...