Atheists and believers surprisingly share moral values, except for these 2 key differences

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Also, I was studying scripture with my family today, and we came across something that says God helps people to be good regardless of their beliefs, especially if they simply try to be good.

But then, you have to figure out what it means to "be good."

There are a lot of people who say that the years that I have spent taking care of my lover, as care-giver to someone who came down with a terrible illness that has left him permanently damaged, is still sinful and wrong because we're both men. It would be okay, of course, if I were just his nurse and not his lover, but that's not what I am.

Yes, let's talk about "what it means to 'be good.'"

 

[robocop (actually)]

But then, you have to figure out what it means to "be good."

There are a lot of people who say that the years that I have spent taking care of my lover, as care-giver to someone who came down with a terrible illness that has left him permanently damaged, is still sinful and wrong because we're both men. It would be okay, of course, if I were just his nurse and not his lover, but that's not what I am.

Yes, let's talk about "what it means to 'be good.'"

Aw, lets talk about "what it means to be good."

The answer is we don't have to talk about it.

The OP said,

"By analyzing the beliefs of nearly 5,000 people in the United States and Sweden, he found that atheists and theists share a number of moral values: Both groups fervently believe in fairness, liberty (including freedom of belief), and the importance of protecting the vulnerable, and both groups hold surprisingly strong bents toward rationality and evidence-based knowledge."

So it would me misjudging for either of us to accuse the other of not being good.

 

[blü 2]

Atheists, it turns out, are a rather morally driven bunch. This is news to many, including Tomas Ståhl, an assistant professor of psychology at the University of Illinois at Chicago, who this week published a fascinating study in Plos One comparing the deepest beliefs of theists and atheists.

By analyzing the beliefs of nearly 5,000 people in the United States and Sweden, he found that atheists and theists share a number of moral values: Both groups fervently believe in fairness, liberty (including freedom of belief), and the importance of protecting the vulnerable, and both groups hold surprisingly strong bents toward rationality and evidence-based knowledge.

Where they differ is revealing:

• Theists are likely to support morals such as reverence for authority, loyalty, and sanctity, which all fuel group cohesion (versus individuality).
• Atheists tend to decide whether or not something is moral by the consequences of a behavior, rather than the morality of the action that caused it (for instance, the common atheist bent that sex acts are fine as long as they’re consensual and no one gets hurt).
  
  Atheists and believers surprisingly share moral values, except for these 2 key differences

First, that sounds like "nearly 5,000" middle class people were involved. I wonder how many were millionaires and how many slept on the street or in ghettos? (Not that I have anything against the middle classes, mind you. Danged fine people!)

Second, humans are born with certain moral instincts ─ child nurture and protection, dislike of the one who harms, like of fairness and reciprocity, respect for authority, loyalty to the group, and a sense of self-worth through self-denial. It's not too surprising to see these values represented here.

So what the poll appears to point to is respect for particular kinds of authority. Having been an employee, a boss, a co-boss, and a sole trader, I'd say the real point is that respect for authority is strongest when it's earnt, and weakest when it's simply asserted. Which is, the poll would tend to say, an unbeliever's PoV, but accords with all my (middle class) experience.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Aw, lets talk about "what it means to be good."

The answer is we don't have to talk about it.

The OP said,

"By analyzing the beliefs of nearly 5,000 people in the United States and Sweden, he found that atheists and theists share a number of moral values: Both groups fervently believe in fairness, liberty (including freedom of belief), and the importance of protecting the vulnerable, and both groups hold surprisingly strong bents toward rationality and evidence-based knowledge."

So it would me misjudging for either of us to accuse the other of not being good.

Okay, but you left out discussion of the area of disagreement, also mentioned in the OP.

Is it "good," for example, to try and coerce a young person, struggling with a difficult problem, to try and change their own nature? Is it "good" to attempt to deny the benefits of marriage to those who don't do it in quite the same way that you do?

 

[robocop (actually)]

Okay, but you left out discussion of the area of disagreement, also mentioned in the OP.

Is it "good," for example, to try and coerce a young person, struggling with a difficult problem, to try and change their own nature? Is it "good" to attempt to deny the benefits of marriage to those who don't do it in quite the same way that you do?

I don't want to take a fall for my whole church, so I'm not going to try to answer.

 

[robocop (actually)]

Okay, but you left out discussion of the area of disagreement, also mentioned in the OP.

Is it "good," for example, to try and coerce a young person, struggling with a difficult problem, to try and change their own nature? Is it "good" to attempt to deny the benefits of marriage to those who don't do it in quite the same way that you do?

Hold on; I can probably fetch you an official position.

 

[robocop (actually)]

Okay, but you left out discussion of the area of disagreement, also mentioned in the OP.

Is it "good," for example, to try and coerce a young person, struggling with a difficult problem, to try and change their own nature? Is it "good" to attempt to deny the benefits of marriage to those who don't do it in quite the same way that you do?

Transgender

Some people experience feelings of incongruence between their biological sex and their gender identity. As a result, some people may choose to identify themselves as transgender. They—and their family and friends—face complex challenges and should be treated with sensitivity, kindness, compassion, and an abundance of Christlike love.

For more information, see “Transgender,” ChurchofJesusChrist.org.

 

[robocop (actually)]

I felt that I shouldn't share "same-sex marriage."

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Transgender

Some people experience feelings of incongruence between their biological sex and their gender identity. As a result, some people may choose to identify themselves as transgender. They—and their family and friends—face complex challenges and should be treated with sensitivity, kindness, compassion, and an abundance of Christlike love.

For more information, see “Transgender,” ChurchofJesusChrist.org.

Yes, this is a complex and difficult matter -- and not one that I understand very well. However, I do know one thing -- I know that "who" we really are is a function of our mental processes. There are, for example, many people who are physically disabled (as you and I may define it) who do not see themselves that way. And to be fair, I personally know people who accept that they are physically disabled, where I (and their doctor) actually disagree.

What is the "truth" about such situations? I don't know, honestly. But I can tell you that long, long ago I knew a boy (who didn't look or behave much like one) whose name was Leonard, but who called him/her/itself Lynn. He/she/it could not accept that the ridiculous attachment between him made a man, and that HE should therefore behave accordingly. HE (at the time) opted instead to have the offending identifier removed.

I also know that this wasn't enough -- Leonard/Lynne took his own life, making the surgery essentially useless. I have no answers to any of this. I have no way to even approach my own feelings on the topic, because the necessary feelings are totally alien and unavailable to me.

See, on a lot of this stuff, I'm not going to go to the scholarly literature -- I'm going to talk to you about real people, people I actually knew.

 

[robocop (actually)]

Yes, this is a complex and difficult matter -- and not one that I understand very well. However, I do know one thing -- I know that "who" we really are is a function of our mental processes. There are, for example, many people who are physically disabled (as you and I may define it) who do not see themselves that way. And to be fair, I personally know people who accept that they are physically disabled, where I (and their doctor) actually disagree.

What is the "truth" about such situations? I don't know, honestly. But I can tell you that long, long ago I knew a boy (who didn't look or behave much like one) whose name was Leonard, but who called him/her/itself Lynn. He/she/it could not accept that the ridiculous attachment between him made a man, and that HE should therefore behave accordingly. HE (at the time) opted instead to have the offending identifier removed.

I also know that this wasn't enough -- Leonard/Lynne took his own life, making the surgery essentially useless. I have no answers to any of this. I have no way to even approach my own feelings on the topic, because the necessary feelings are totally alien and unavailable to me.

See, on a lot of this stuff, I'm not going to go to the scholarly literature -- I'm going to talk to you about real people, people I actually knew.

I'll try to catch up to you later... I've got to do something.

 

[blü 2]

Interesting that none of the atheists here cared to comment on their apparently amoral belief that 'the end justifies or condemns the means'.

"Atheists tend to decide whether or not something is moral by the consequences of a behavior, rather than the morality (intent) of the action that caused it."

interesting . What test for "morality" do you employ?

Do you, for example, not suffer a witch to live, because God said so?

 

[Sand Dancer]

Makes sense to me. The notion that without theism people become amoral selfish hedonists is just a silly caricature.

True, but without an "enemy," it's hard to convert people.

 

[robocop (actually)]

Yes, this is a complex and difficult matter -- and not one that I understand very well. However, I do know one thing -- I know that "who" we really are is a function of our mental processes. There are, for example, many people who are physically disabled (as you and I may define it) who do not see themselves that way. And to be fair, I personally know people who accept that they are physically disabled, where I (and their doctor) actually disagree.

What is the "truth" about such situations? I don't know, honestly. But I can tell you that long, long ago I knew a boy (who didn't look or behave much like one) whose name was Leonard, but who called him/her/itself Lynn. He/she/it could not accept that the ridiculous attachment between him made a man, and that HE should therefore behave accordingly. HE (at the time) opted instead to have the offending identifier removed.

I also know that this wasn't enough -- Leonard/Lynne took his own life, making the surgery essentially useless. I have no answers to any of this. I have no way to even approach my own feelings on the topic, because the necessary feelings are totally alien and unavailable to me.

See, on a lot of this stuff, I'm not going to go to the scholarly literature -- I'm going to talk to you about real people, people I actually knew.

I knew a tranny who said they manipulated her into believing it.

The suicide with LGBTQQIP2SAA is terrible and I'm sure my church doesn't want their blood on its hands!

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I knew a tranny who said they manipulated her into believing it.

"They" who? And how on earth do you get "manipulated" into believing you're a "tranny?" (Not sure whether you mean transvestite, transexual or transgender. Or perhaps even transcendental.)

 

[Left Coast]

I knew a tranny who said they manipulated her into believing it.

Out of respect, please don't use the word "tranny." It's flippant and rude. Trans person/man/woman is just fine.

 

[Clara Tea]

Atheists, it turns out, are a rather morally driven bunch. This is news to many, including Tomas Ståhl, an assistant professor of psychology at the University of Illinois at Chicago, who this week published a fascinating study in Plos One comparing the deepest beliefs of theists and atheists.

By analyzing the beliefs of nearly 5,000 people in the United States and Sweden, he found that atheists and theists share a number of moral values: Both groups fervently believe in fairness, liberty (including freedom of belief), and the importance of protecting the vulnerable, and both groups hold surprisingly strong bents toward rationality and evidence-based knowledge.

Where they differ is revealing:

• Theists are likely to support morals such as reverence for authority, loyalty, and sanctity, which all fuel group cohesion (versus individuality).
• Atheists tend to decide whether or not something is moral by the consequences of a behavior, rather than the morality of the action that caused it (for instance, the common atheist bent that sex acts are fine as long as they’re consensual and no one gets hurt).
  
  Atheists and believers surprisingly share moral values, except for these 2 key differences

We already knew that atheists were more moral than theists. Isn't that obvious from looking at the problems of the world.

Take, for example, the Mafia. The Mafia has existed for over 100 years. Mafia members think that as long as they can count rosary beads, they are forgiven for any of their heinous sins (including sins that they plan to do later). Atonement means that they will never do it again. Yet, the Mafia fully intends to do more lying, killing, stealing, and extorting. The Catholic church doesn't excommunicate them because they would lose any influence they have if they left the church. Yet, it should be the goal of the church to influence the Mafia to stop.

What causes atheists to be more moral than theists? Forgiveness causes it. Christians think that they will be forgiven, so they continue to sin.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Atheists, it turns out, are a rather morally driven bunch. This is news to many, including Tomas Ståhl, an assistant professor of psychology at the University of Illinois at Chicago, who this week published a fascinating study in Plos One comparing the deepest beliefs of theists and atheists.

By analyzing the beliefs of nearly 5,000 people in the United States and Sweden, he found that atheists and theists share a number of moral values: Both groups fervently believe in fairness, liberty (including freedom of belief), and the importance of protecting the vulnerable, and both groups hold surprisingly strong bents toward rationality and evidence-based knowledge.

Where they differ is revealing:

• Theists are likely to support morals such as reverence for authority, loyalty, and sanctity, which all fuel group cohesion (versus individuality).
• Atheists tend to decide whether or not something is moral by the consequences of a behavior, rather than the morality of the action that caused it (for instance, the common atheist bent that sex acts are fine as long as they’re consensual and no one gets hurt).
  
  Atheists and believers surprisingly share moral values, except for these 2 key differences

That morality does get twisted though. The saying it was God's will for instance if something goes wrong through a bad decision, such as religious health exemption that can prove disastrous. The morality between God and family where a belief takes priority over loved ones.

 

[Clara Tea]

Out of respect, please don't use the word "tranny." It's flippant and rude. Trans person/man/woman is just fine.

Christians are required to be polite and sweet-natured to all. It is not the role of Christians to judge (only God may judge).

 

[robocop (actually)]

"They" who? And how on earth do you get "manipulated" into believing you're a "tranny?" (Not sure whether you mean transvestite, transexual or transgender. Or perhaps even transcendental.)

She was taught to believe she was the opposite gender.

 

[robocop (actually)]

Out of respect, please don't use the word "tranny." It's flippant and rude. Trans person/man/woman is just fine.

Sorry. I thought the word "tranny" was just a word with no connotation.