Atheists are animals

[Thief]

In terms of biology, we are animals. But biology is our thingy.

I think, that we have unique ability to destroy natural happiness and also to regain it.

I suspect....after the lat breath.....
our happiness will be influenced by everyone around you

and we end up alongside others like ourselves

what if you end up alongside a collection of souls that never got over.....behaving like animals

 

[Bear Wild]

you hit on it......and then dropped it

ever since that garden event......we are NOT like the rest of the animals

juiced up are we?......oh yeah
going back to the garden?.....nay.....it has been dismantled

going to heaven?.....not in this form

going to hell?.......if we keep on behaving like animals

You still do not get it. We are animals and thus our behavior is that of an animal. That is the reality and not the fantasy we are not.

 

[Segev Moran]

We are maladaptive because we change the environment into what we want and not what is best for long term survival.

Thats an outcome of our abilities.
It is only a recent change in the human behavior. we used to be much more adaptive than any other specie.
Today we simply dont need to be as we can change the environment instead.

We create conditions where life cannot exist by creating surfaces and structures that exclude other life.

Agreed.

This is adapting the environment to our desires but is creating an environment that excludes plant life which supports our existence.

Yep.

We are using energies that create global warming which in turn destroys the life that supports our life.

Unfortunately it is also true.

I am not mixing the fact but stating what is clearly a detrimental adaptive behavior. The consequences are already becoming clear.

Yep. as Metallica sing: Sad but true.

Humans have always adapted to their environment that is why we are here. But it has not been until very recently that humans had the capacity on a large scale to destroy our world.

Right.

Most of human history was in balance with the natural world. It has only been in the several thousand years where man has had a great impact on the earth and in the last 300 years where this has accelerated at alarming rate.

Yes, indeed. I wouldn't even go far by saying several thousands, rather a couple.

As for " our planet is what we make of it. we are the only species that can claim this claim" is a sad statement for the ignorance of humans.

Yet it is the fact. This planet is what humans make of it.
Don't mix that with thinking i claim what we do with it is a good thing.

We have increased our knowledge but smarter? We were warned back in the 1800's by Alexander Humboldt that our actions were changing the environment in a negative way and would have profound negative effects for all of life including us.

You are correct. Many people many years ago predicted the way we will destroy our planet.
But yes, we are getting smarter.

Rachel Carson pointed out our actions were destructive, John Muir warned us of the negative effects our behavior to the rest of the natural world. Earth Day was created to remind us that we need to change. Despite all of this is the human race really smarter?

of course.

More knowledge yes but smarter? The president of the United States wants to go backwards in protecting the environment.
So you said we are better in the important things.

Indeed i did

Explain how we are really better if we are clearly doing things that will ultimately cause our extinction. Were are we better in the important things?

I'll explain two things.

Why are we smarter?

I didn't say that people in the past weren't smart, i said "we" as a human society.
We live in a world where money is what matters. it is like so for ages.
As we become smarter (as a society) we understand the money is nothing important and that there are many things that are much more important than that.
If we were a smarter society in the past, we wouldn't have got to where we are today!
There were very smart people, of course, but as a society, the humans in the past were idiots.
25 years back, people were allowed to smoke in hospitals!
50 years back it was ok the hit your kids as a mean of education.
100 years back it was ok to rape woman for fun.
500 years back human life had no value at all.
You get the idea.

People always knew that hitting a kid is wrong, yet the society didn't really care.
People always knew that raping a woman is wrong, yet the society didn't care.

This leads to the fact that we are much better as a society today than the old ages. (we have many miles to go yet, but hopefully we will gt there at some point).

The second thing I'll explain is why we are better at the important things.

Like it or not, animals are strict to their nature. they cannot change reality by will.
We can.
You can!
One person can change the entire way we experience life.

The human "animal" has the ability to change its nature as it pleases.
No animal can do that. this is the most important trait a creature can have, it is called free will.
This means that no matter the situation you are involved in, you can choose how to react to it.

A hungry lion will never choose not to eat. A hungry person can choose to starve himself to feed others.

This is the most important thing humans have. it is also the most powerful.

Humans can see whats no there. this gives us the ability to do what i just wrote.
We are the only creature that can have an understanding of something that does not exist!

I can explain to you in details what a dragon is. no animal can have this understanding.
I can explain to you what happened 1000 years ago. no animal can have this understanding.
I can explain to you how your blood heals your skin, no animal can understand that.

Our brains might have the same mechanism as other species, but we have the ability to use this mechanism in ways no animal can!

This is what i've meant we are better.

An animal is not better or worse. it is just that, an animal.
There are no bad animals.
Animal cannot be wrong. it can not act in a wrong way, it can just act.

Humans can.

 

[Bear Wild]

Thats an outcome of our abilities.
It is only a recent change in the human behavior. we used to be much more adaptive than any other specie.
Today we simply dont need to be as we can change the environment instead.

Agreed.

Yep.

Unfortunately it is also true.

Yep. as Metallica sing: Sad but true.

Right.

Yes, indeed. I wouldn't even go far by saying several thousands, rather a couple.

Yet it is the fact. This planet is what humans make of it.
Don't mix that with thinking i claim what we do with it is a good thing.

You are correct. Many people many years ago predicted the way we will destroy our planet.
But yes, we are getting smarter.

of course.

Indeed i did

I'll explain two things.

Why are we smarter?

I didn't say that people in the past weren't smart, i said "we" as a human society.
We live in a world where money is what matters. it is like so for ages.
As we become smarter (as a society) we understand the money is nothing important and that there are many things that are much more important than that.
If we were a smarter society in the past, we wouldn't have got to where we are today!
There were very smart people, of course, but as a society, the humans in the past were idiots.
25 years back, people were allowed to smoke in hospitals!
50 years back it was ok the hit your kids as a mean of education.
100 years back it was ok to rape woman for fun.
500 years back human life had no value at all.
You get the idea.

People always knew that hitting a kid is wrong, yet the society didn't really care.
People always knew that raping a woman is wrong, yet the society didn't care.

This leads to the fact that we are much better as a society today than the old ages. (we have many miles to go yet, but hopefully we will gt there at some point).

The second thing I'll explain is why we are better at the important things.

Like it or not, animals are strict to their nature. they cannot change reality by will.
We can.
You can!
One person can change the entire way we experience life.

The human "animal" has the ability to change its nature as it pleases.
No animal can do that. this is the most important trait a creature can have, it is called free will.
This means that no matter the situation you are involved in, you can choose how to react to it.

A hungry lion will never choose not to eat. A hungry person can choose to starve himself to feed others.

This is the most important thing humans have. it is also the most powerful.

Humans can see whats no there. this gives us the ability to do what i just wrote.
We are the only creature that can have an understanding of something that does not exist!

I can explain to you in details what a dragon is. no animal can have this understanding.
I can explain to you what happened 1000 years ago. no animal can have this understanding.
I can explain to you how your blood heals your skin, no animal can understand that.

Our brains might have the same mechanism as other species, but we have the ability to use this mechanism in ways no animal can!

This is what i've meant we are better.

An animal is not better or worse. it is just that, an animal.
There are no bad animals.
Animal cannot be wrong. it can not act in a wrong way, it can just act.

Humans can.

I certainly will not argue that humans have the greatest capacity to create things in the environment and are the most intelligent using our standards to measure intelligence. We do not know the degree of intelligence which dolphins have. They cannot manipulate things the way humans can but since we cannot communicate adequately with them we just do not know how to measure their intelligence. Their brain is certainly large and complex enough. For know we just do not know.

As for animals cannot be wrong - cannot act in a wrong way. That is not true. There are well documented observations of animals killing without eating what they catch - This is clearly not a good behavior or one that has a good outcome. What again we do not know is how they perceive the action. It is easy to say know but as the study of animal behavior advances we find animals are more conscious of there actions with its effects that we ever imagined in the past. Do they have a concept of good and bad. We can only say we are not sure. Certainly dogs show some recognition of activities that are considered bad and good by their human companions. The fieldwork on chimpanzees who are social show very complex behavior with boundaries of behavior set by the group. Animals can act in negative behaviors but how much they understand what they do is unclear and we need to find better ways to understand their behavior.

 

[Segev Moran]

I certainly will not argue that humans have the greatest capacity to create things in the environment and are the most intelligent using our standards to measure intelligence.

I dont know about our intelligence. it is something we measure in a human mind and cannot really measure on other beings.

We do not know the degree of intelligence which dolphins have.

I agree, though we know it is not as high as the human brain. They have a very complex and advanced mind, yet although in the past we thought they might even have a superior mind to humans, we today know it is not the fact.

They cannot manipulate things the way humans can but since we cannot communicate adequately with them we just do not know how to measure their intelligence.

Agreed.
We can however, measure the way their brain works (neurons and connections etc)

Their brain is certainly large and complex enough. For know we just do not know.

Indeed. we don;t really know what a dolphin thinks
We know they are self aware though, like several other specie also.

As for animals cannot be wrong - cannot act in a wrong way. That is not true.

Of course it is
[/QUOTE]
There are well documented observations of animals killing without eating what they catch - This is clearly not a good behavior
[/QUOTE]
In your mind maybe.
The animal that killed have no understanding it did something wrong.

or one that has a good outcome.

We used to think white whales were cruel as they were observed "abusing" sea lions while playing "tale pong" with them. it was thought there was no good reason for this until we realized they do it to practice their hunting and maneuvering skills.

What again we do not know is how they perceive the action.

Actually we do

It is easy to say know but as the study of animal behavior advances we find animals are more conscious of there actions with its effects that we ever imagined in the past.

I Agree, yet they still have no understanding of good and bad.
What we consider bad, for example, eating your own cubs like lions do, is not something a lion will ever think, hmm.. this is a bad way to act.
A lion will always act as a lion. no thoughts about it. a lion (or any animal for that matter including chimps) do not choose how to behave. humans do.

Do they have a concept of good and bad.

Nope.
They have a concept of allowed or not.

We can only say we are not sure.

We are pretty sure
A dog doesn't know whats good and bad until you teach it to him.
A human that was experiencing only bad things in his life, can in an instant have an understanding of something that is considered bad.

Certainly dogs show some recognition of activities that are considered bad and good by their human companions.

They only able to recognize it as they are aware of the consequences.
If your dog poops in your living room and you will give it a treat, it will not care how other dogs act, hit will keep on pooping in your living room
A human, even if you will reward him for hitting someone, can have the understanding that hitting someone is wrong even if its rewarding.

The fieldwork on chimpanzees who are social show very complex behavior with boundaries of behavior set by the group.

Of course. Social behaviors are part of their education and way of survival.
Yet it is not a matter of right and wrong, rather actions and consequences.
A human, unlike a chimp, can act in a different way to his way of social education. chimps will not (and if so, they will not survive for long)

Animals can act in negative behaviors

Nope. They can act in ways we think are negative.

but how much they understand what they do is unclear and we need to find better ways to understand their behavior.

We are getting better at understating them every day

But this is not the issue.
The thing is that animals act only as the animal they are.
A cat will always act like a cat.
A horse will act as a horse.
A human can act like whatever he chooses.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

This tendency of certain religions and other worldviews to teach the delusion that humans are not animals or are somehow higher or set apart from the rest of nature gets on my nerves. It breeds arrogance and has led us to desacralize nature. Look at how we abuse the Earth and other species. I'm glad to have aligned myself with a path that recognizes that we are animals and cherishes the primal in humanity, and provides a holistic spiritual outlook.

 

[Bear Wild]

I dont know about our intelligence. it is something we measure in a human mind and cannot really measure on other beings.

I agree, though we know it is not as high as the human brain. They have a very complex and advanced mind, yet although in the past we thought they might even have a superior mind to humans, we today know it is not the fact.

Agreed.
We can however, measure the way their brain works (neurons and connections etc)

Indeed. we don;t really know what a dolphin thinks
We know they are self aware though, like several other specie also.

Of course it is

There are well documented observations of animals killing without eating what they catch - This is clearly not a good behavior
[/QUOTE]
In your mind maybe.
The animal that killed have no understanding it did something wrong.

We used to think white whales were cruel as they were observed "abusing" sea lions while playing "tale pong" with them. it was thought there was no good reason for this until we realized they do it to practice their hunting and maneuvering skills.

Actually we do

I Agree, yet they still have no understanding of good and bad.
What we consider bad, for example, eating your own cubs like lions do, is not something a lion will ever think, hmm.. this is a bad way to act.
A lion will always act as a lion. no thoughts about it. a lion (or any animal for that matter including chimps) do not choose how to behave. humans do.

Nope.
They have a concept of allowed or not.

We are pretty sure
A dog doesn't know whats good and bad until you teach it to him.
A human that was experiencing only bad things in his life, can in an instant have an understanding of something that is considered bad.

They only able to recognize it as they are aware of the consequences.
If your dog poops in your living room and you will give it a treat, it will not care how other dogs act, hit will keep on pooping in your living room
A human, even if you will reward him for hitting someone, can have the understanding that hitting someone is wrong even if its rewarding.

Of course. Social behaviors are part of their education and way of survival.
Yet it is not a matter of right and wrong, rather actions and consequences.
A human, unlike a chimp, can act in a different way to his way of social education. chimps will not (and if so, they will not survive for long)

Nope. They can act in ways we think are negative.

We are getting better at understating them every day

But this is not the issue.
The thing is that animals act only as the animal they are.
A cat will always act like a cat.
A horse will act as a horse.
A human can act like whatever he chooses.[/QUOTE]
I agree with you up to the end. Different animals raised together can copy the traits of other animals. Some cats will act more like dogs for instance. That is because the have instinctual behaviors and learned behaviors.

 

[Thief]

I see some people lack that ability to draw a line between humans
and the rest of the animal kingdom

a lack of belief?.....in themselves?
of God?

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

you must have read that story I post now and then.....

the one about.....
Man is less that you are therefore....seek after him and see that he not dash his foot nor his head
(instruction dealt to the angelic )

and one third of heaven said ...nay
That he is less.....he should be made to serve us
(there's nothing wrong with that logic)

one third of heaven rebelled and lost their positions
two thirds of heaven lost their brothers

and we should be accepted at the Table?

The only reason to explicitly not allow anyone at "your table" (that one believes they may actually own such a "table" in any objective way is comical to me) is if you believe they pose some threat to you or others at said table.

Regardless any of that, however, it is still possible to respect another being's existence without accepting or rejecting them from whatever idiotic "table" you want to sit at and pretend you are on a high horse. In other words, if angels take a stock stance that humans are lesser beings, then they too are being as immature and ridiculous as you are in assuming that animals are lesser beings just because you are intelligent enough to take advantage of them and laugh at the consequences. Only a fool would believe himself as being worthy of anything by default. Just because you are human? What, exactly, can you prove that being human means? What exactly are you deserving of, and how did you come to such conclusions? As a human, what do you believe you are?

 

[Bear Wild]

I see some people lack that ability to draw a line between humans
and the rest of the animal kingdom

a lack of belief?.....in themselves?
of God?

I see that someone denies what that person is or has no concept of biology/science and uses a belief to make themselves different. You can imagine all you want but you will still be an animal that co-inhabits a planet with other animals. Humans have different characteristics from other species that's what it means to be a species. We manipulate the environment to the detriment of the environment and heading to the destruction of our own species. That is certainly different from other animals. If a god created the world and life and one species is destroying the creation what does that say about the human species. In the end we are animals and part of the animal kingdom and no amount of imagination will change that. Our only hope is that mankind sees their mistake and takes the steps to fix what we have done before it is too late. So humans are animals biologically, what does that make you?