Atheists are not nearly as rationional as some think.

[Polymath257]

I beg to differ because to me consciousness is the competence to discern. It is not the manifested human like intelligence that some always impose on other living beings. In my perspective, plants and unicellular organisms also have ability to discern. I had earlier cited scientific evidences that favour my view. Let me repeat some of those.

Plant Intelligence: An Overview | BioScience | Oxford Academic
Plant Intelligence: An Overview | BioScience | Oxford Academic
The secrets of intelligence lie within a single cell
A single-celled organism capable of learning
Scientists Discover That Slime Mold Is Capable of Learning



Again I beg to differ. Even to discern distinction between simple and complex structures, intelligence is a pre-requisite. A 'complex structure' cannot be the subject and object both.

So are you now claiming that we *can* determine scientifically if something is conscious? So it *is* open to scientific evaluation? Good, that it, at least, a step.

Furthermore, these determinations are made through *physical* means, so we identify physical signs of consciousness. That is a good second step.

 

[atanu]

So are you now claiming that we *can* determine scientifically if something is conscious? So it *is* open to scientific evaluation? Good, that it, at least, a step.

Furthermore, these determinations are made through *physical* means, so we identify physical signs of consciousness. That is a good second step.

We can observe and analyse from third party perspective, the manifestation of consciousness in various forms. But we cannot see-know the seer-knower subject as an object.

Who will see the seer? Who will know the knower?

 

[Polymath257]

We can observe and analyse from third party perspective, the manifestation of consciousness in various forms. But we cannot see-know the seer-knower subject as an object.

I cannot be you. I cannot use your eyes or your brain. I cannot make *my* brain work the same way yours does. I fail to see how that says anything about the nature of consciousness one way or the other.

Who will see the seer? Who will know the knower?

If we can identify brain activity as mental functioning, how is that not 'seeing the seer'? As an 'object'?