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Atheists believe in miracles more than believers

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Really not to argue, but I do wonder if you believe/think it is possible there are things we cannot see but exist and we may never see them with our physical/natural eyes, yet they exist?
Probably most of what we're aware of we cannot perceive directly, with our senses, but sensory perception is neither the only nor the most reliable means to apprehend reality.

I'm presently listening to a radio, and pushing keys on a laptop creating text that can be read by people thousands of Km away. I can't perceive the radio waves, or the internet, yet I'm immersed in them. I believe in them because I have empirical evidence of them.

The supernatural, on the other hand, remains unevidenced and without any explanatory power. It's only support is an appeal to tradition or to other believers.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
So? No scientist has ever seen a radio wave, either.
I have. With both hands

IMG_20240721_220740.jpg
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I would think anyway that a good parent would teach a child right from wrong. I know that many parents teach or discipline their children when the parent doesn't like something the child does, but morals (in essence, the difference between right and wrong) are often not taught. As an example, I know of one father a while back who was teaching his son to shoplift. I was not a religious person at the time, in fact I had no religious beliefs at all, nevertheless it shocked me to learn that this man would teach his son to shoplift.
Many parents dictate right and wrong, and many will reward or punish certain behaviors. But how many parents teach their children what right and wrong are, and how to recognize and assess them?

Many children learn that right is what brings a reward, and wrong, what brings pain. What makes something right or wrong; what right and wrong are, is never really learned.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Facts require evidence. Evidence that are testable and measurable observations.

What evidence are there for any god to be fact?

There are none. No such evidence exist, where any God can be observed. There are no facts on any creator or supreme being…just faith-based beliefs, and that‘s no better than superstition.

...

I am not religious and I don't beleve in this defintion of God as a fact: The creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.
It was a counter to the claim that the defintion of the universe is that it is natural. My answer is that a defintion is not a fact, so it is not a fact that the univere is natural, just because the definition says so. The same with the definition of God.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No scientist has ever seen the beginning of the universe.
But while most of us have seen scientists, none of us have seen a real God, one who exists, not just in the mind, but in the world external to the self, where photographs, interviews, personal appearances are possible.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Yes, but when it comes to measurements using instruments, there is a difference.
What's the difference? Basically, we don't really observe anything but effects. We have a model that explains lots of effects, that is electromagnetic radiation. The model matches the effects we observe so well that the theory is universally accepted.

Newton's laws are the same, we can only observe the effects.

We cannot, even in principle, observe individual quarks (that make up protons, neutrons, and many other particles) because the strong force that holds them together increases with distance, so by the time you've provided enough energy to separate them to an observable distance, we'll have generated other particles. Yet the quark model works so well, it is not at all controversial.

We can't observe the exact quantum state of any particle, because any measurement at all will change it, but quantum mechanics works so well, it's the basis of pretty much all modern technology.

What we do is build a model of the world and see if all the effects (experiments and observation) match the model.

There is even some evidence that that's how the brain itself works. Perception has been described as a 'controlled hallucination', the brain's 'best guess' at the world, that is constantly being refined and updated from the sense organs (see Being You by Anil Seth). In a way, in this hypothesis, the brain is doing science: building models that make predictions of future sensory inputs, then comparing the result with what happens with said inputs.

Basically, the history of the universe is no different. We can observe the effects, build models, and see if they match the models.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
What's the difference? Basically, we don't really observe anything but effects. We have a model that explains lots of effects, that is electromagnetic radiation. The model matches the effects we observe so well that the theory is universally accepted.

Newton's laws are the same, we can only observe the effects.

We cannot, even in principle, observe individual quarks (that make up protons, neutrons, and many other particles) because the strong force that holds them together increases with distance, so by the time you've provided enough energy to separate them to an observable distance, we'll have generated other particles. Yet the quark model works so well, it is not at all controversial.

We can't observe the exact quantum state of any particle, because any measurement at all will change it, but quantum mechanics works so well, it's the basis of pretty much all modern technology.

What we do is build a model of the world and see if all the effects (experiments and observation) match the model.

There is even some evidence that that's how the brain itself works. Perception has been described as a 'controlled hallucination', the brain's 'best guess' at the world, that is constantly being refined and updated from the sense organs (see Being You by Anil Seth). In a way, in this hypothesis, the brain is doing science: building models that make predictions of future sensory inputs, then comparing the result with what happens with said inputs.

Basically, the history of the universe is no different. We can observe the effects, build models, and see if they match the models.

Well, there is a debate about what is real behind the observed effects of in effect experience and instruments, but there is no observed effects of the beginging of spacetime. That is the difference.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
But I couldn't arrive from a infinity distant point to this point.

You are suggesting, it seems to me, that I was born after an infinite number of seconds/moments or events. ... This would be analogous to walking and infinite distance (space) to get to this point. ......

Just on principle... I don't see how that makes sense.
Say you have an infinite series of events. Let's just assume for a second such exists.
Each of those events, is in fact an event, yes?
Why couldn't one of those events be your birth?

You are talking about the one specific event of your birth, you could say the same thing about any specific event in the infinite series of events.
IF you have an infinite series of events, then every one of those events are events that occurred. Why couldn't one of those events be your, or anyone else's, birth? :shrug:


Well the KCA says that the universe has a reason (and reason means cause) weather if god has the same problem or not is beyond the scope of this argument.

Why would that be beyond the scope?
Sounds like special pleading.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Well, there is a debate about what is real behind the observed effects of in effect experience and instruments, but there is no observed effects of the beginging of spacetime. That is the difference.
Yes, but nobody (who knows what they're talking about) is claiming to know what happened at the very beginning (or if there was one, for that matter).

As I said in a previous post (#3,160), the further we get back, the less certain things become. We obviously have evidence from later on (the CMB, for example) and we can extrapolate our models of how things work today, backwards beyond that, but we go from things we have direct evidence of, through extrapolations that we can have reasonable confidence it, into the hypothetical, but then we get to an unknown and all we have is very tentative hypotheses (that might, just possibly, be testable by making predictions we could actually look for) to pure conjecture.

One of the ironies of the arguments put forward by @leroy and @PureX on this thread, and other theists, is that they rely on a finite past and then disagree with, or don't understand, the theory that suggests that it is finite, i.e. General relativity and the nature of space-time.

Before Einstein and general relativity, the prevailing scientific view was that the universe was eternal. So much so that Einstein tried to 'fix' his theory to allow for a static universe (the 'cosmological constant'), and even after universal expansion was established, that there was the 'steady state theory' that posited continuous creation of matter to keep the overall density of the universe constant. It wasn't until after the discovery of the CMB in 1964, that the big bang theory became the generally accepted view, and the idea of a beginning of space-time was taken seriously.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I'd say the universe exists because mass-energy exists.
And rain exists because water exists. This is just empty gibberish that says nothing.
No, I don't know why or how mass-energy came to exist. But the cyclical propositions already mentioned, and the possibility of more or mutable dimensions, may rule time out as a problem.
Time is not relevant to the question, anyway. The question being asked preempts the advent of time.
Or not, of course, but since we're talking about possibilities, well, we can each take our pick.
We can. But if we wish to be honest, they are still subject to logical scrutiny.
I'm not aware of a demonstrably correct answer and I don't think such a thing presently exists.
Of course it doesn't. Not in any form we humans could possibly recognize. All we can do is speculate, and assess those speculations logically.
But speculative answers are still possible ─ indeed all we have at this stage ─ and there are more of them than one.
There are three. But only one of them stands up to logical scrutiny.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
After looking over some comments here, I would like to ask if you believe or think there are some things (whatever they are) that we cannot see, but which exist?
Well, we can only presume them to exist. Like dark matter, for example. And infinity, or perfection.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Rhetorical question, right? Some people have no choice. They can only think in terms of gods. They're uncomfortable without a god belief. If they weren't, they'd be atheists. The idea of gods and religion offer nothing of value to those who are comfortable without them but does consume resources and can have an ill effect on believers. We see people damaged by their religious beliefs here on RF routinely.

Disagree. Gods go at the bottom of any list of putative sources for our universe. They are the least parsimonious of the logical possibilities.

This is an example of what I just referred to to Valjean. As you have seen on this thread, some people are comfortable with the fact that we have no answers and are comfortable with agnosticism for gods, while other people gravitate toward a god belief. They are uncomfortable with uncertainty, and so guess and then believe their guess. It doesn't give them answers, just comfort.

You just described something I would consider not worth thinking about again. How liberating to be comfortable with not knowing.
It's not about being comfortable. It's about being curious. Being human.
Yeah, but for your whole life? I assure you that you will know no more about the subject in ten years than you do now, which is no more than you knew ten years ago.
It's not about knowing. It's about embracing the possibilities.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Time is not relevant to the question, anyway.
But if we wish to be honest, they are still subject to logical scrutiny.
There are three. But only one of them stands up to logical scrutiny.
There are not just three, your options are based on (a simplistic, outdated view of) time, which you now say is irrelevant. And your dismissal of one of them (an eternal past) doesn't stand up even if you hadn't made basic mistakes.

So can we expect a version of your 'logic' that doesn't rely on simplistic, out of date notions about time?
 

PureX

Veteran Member
There are not just three, your options are based on (a simplistic, outdated view of) time, which you now say is irrelevant. And your dismissal of one of them (an eternal past) doesn't stand up even if you hadn't made basic mistakes.

So can we expect a version of your 'logic' that doesn't rely on simplistic, out of date notions about time?
Your foolish worship of science is stopping you from even understanding the question at hand. You can keep throwing your science turds around if you want, but so far you haven't even entered the conversation. Because it's a philosophical discussion/debate. Not science.
 
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