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Atheists believe in miracles more than believers

Pogo

Well-Known Member
I find it a common feature of those that reject science. The re-appellation of established terminology to mean something else, reliance on straw man versions of science, considerable belief in a vast personal knowledge that is never revealed in the volumes of their written content and most often, claims without substance offered as fact.

Personally, I don't see those with these traits as having a voice in the discussion and what they post, in volume and on heavy rotation, I feel can be ignored without further comment other than correction. I have found that those so inclined are only here to spread their word and don't seem to have any real interest in learning.

The claim that all change in all things is sudden has been widely refuted times too numerous to count on here, but here it comes up again.

At one point, the claim of universal sudden change was qualified in relation to star formation as if that refuted the fact that the evidence shows that change across the spectrum is variable in time. The attempt reminded me of the learning tool of using a 24 hour clock to go from the origin of the earth through natural history to the rise of man demonstrating that we are relatively recent. Even doing that, doesn't make the appearance of humans sudden. It just places it in perspective.
I just left a comment to @Balthazzar to this general effect in telling him that trying to shoehorn his misunderstandings of science into the Genesis story was actually missing the point of the story and destructive to the whole purpose. I suggested he find a Rabbi to explain the significance of the story.
It seems as if creationists have turned their faith into a cargo-cult waiting for John Frum to return to the point that helping Trump build his temple to himself will hasten his return.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
If change in species really occurred as Darwin and Evolutionists believe there would be a utter cacophony of species where many individuals took one path others took other paths. Why should we presume that every whale would suddenly start evolving along the same path since niches vary everywhere. There would be so many species many individuals would and die without seeing another of its own species except for parents and siblings and no matter how fit it is could not reproduce.

This doesn't exist because change occurs at bottlenecks. The few survivors create a new species. This is the only observed cause of change in species. We have both dogs and wolves because man didn't kill all the wolves and merely created an artificial bottleneck by selecting only the tamest wolves. Nature sometimes kills all of a species except a few that are different than the rest and a new species arises.

All change is sudden. The believe that consensus is right by definition would require a miracle. Yet most people and many peers believe in the infallibility of Peers. They will not entertain the notion that any holier than thou might be wrong. They won't entertain notions like they are being lied to by those paid to present the news or that science is bought and sold in DC. They can't even imagine that someday everything peers believe will be rewritten or wholly overturned despite the fact this has always occurred and usually suddenly at a funeral.
Here's what I'm saying in reference to whales: whales have been around as far as I know, for quite a while. There are stories about whale hunting. Now
That opinion was never asserted, it very well could have been a powerful Pixie, but the evidence is that it happened in a manner indistinguishable with that which scientists are proposing.

You are welcome to provide evidence for an alternate interpretation or evidence for the thus far unevidenced Pixie.
Since there is nothing but assumptions as to how and what fish evolved to eventually become apes, that's how it goes.
 

Pogo

Well-Known Member
Here's what I'm saying in reference to whales: whales have been around as far as I know, for quite a while. There are stories about whale hunting. Now

Since there is nothing but assumptions as to how and what fish evolved to eventually become apes, that's how it goes.
Carolus Linnaeus categorized Whales and Humans correctly based on the evidence that he had 100 years before Darwin. To say that it is nothing but assumptions is to lie about what we know and the evidence we have. The progression is a very well worked out theory with tons of evidence and new evidence being found every day.

When are you going to present your alternative explanation with any evidence, not just an interpretation of a book on a different subject?
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Us? Who is us? The only one in this forum that affirms that the eye evolved just by random mutations and natural selection is you.
The eye evolved through natural selection, like most other features.
I don’t think there are any demonstrable mechanism that can explain the origin of the human eye nor any other complex organ or system………………the only one in this forum who claims to have such mechanism is you
Google "evolution of the eye." There's nothing mysterious about it.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
I understood him to mean that small changes can accumulate and become large changes. Your last sentence is correct. Did you think that anybody posting here disagrees? His words were, "Small changes can accumulate to create big changes. A grain of sand moving one centimeter a year will eventually circle the Earth. Changes don't always lead to big changes."
his original claim
Yes, clear, obvious differences take many generations. But small changes do accumulate, do they not? There's nothing to stop the slow changes.

If I put a tiny red dot, the size of this period/full stop [.], on a large movie screen every twenty years, soon (relatively) the whole screen would be bright red, wouldn't it? Atheists believe in miracles more than believers
So it seems to me that he is saying that small changes always lead to big changes………….he later changed his words (he changed “can” for “do”)

The implication is that proving micro evolution doesn’t automatically proves macro evolution

In my opinion that is not neat picking, do and can are very different words

Your behavior has been called nitpicking. Yes, "can" would have been a better word choice than "will" in that middle sentence, but he was very clear in the pervious and following sentences that he meant "can." So why pursue this line of inquiry?

In my opinion that is not neat picking, "do" and "can" are very different words, his origianl word was "DO"


Do you think he said that ("always"). I don't
Given his original claim where he uses the word DO, do you still think I misunderstood?

And even after all this time, it is still not clear to me if @Valjean

1 acknowledges his mistake (typo) and admits that “DO” was not the correct word use

2 acknowledges his mistake (he didn’t know previously that small changes don’t necesirly lead to big changes) but he learded and changes his mind

3 still thinks that he is correct and that small changes do (necessarily) lead to big changes



 
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leroy

Well-Known Member
Google "evolution of the eye." There's nothing mysterious about it.
Really, so why are there so many scientists studying the eye and trying to figure our how did it evolved, (as well as other organs and systems?)

Are they too stupid that they haven’t found in Google the mysterious sources that you are referring to?



We know with high degree of certanity that the eye evolved from simpler organs , we don’t which mechanisms where responsible nor the role that each mechanism played ……..do you disagree with this statement?
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
@leroy, go back and read the sequence again, you were given definitions of words, they only one who made any statement about probability of truth was you, they are not positions of evidence, they are positions of belief or knowdue to lack of evidence.
Yes, what i said originally, is that I understand the word agnostic to mean “I dont know and I have no reason to think that one view is more likely to be true than the other”

If you think that I am missuing the term “agnostic” that is ok, (I don’t care) feel free to use any other word.

The relevant question is, does that position (call it agnosticism or however you want) represents your view? Yes or no?.....just kidding, nobody is expecting a direct answer from you…
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
So where's the scientific method showing how fish evolved eventually to be humans.
In my opinion the strongest line of evidence comes from psudogenes (broken genes)The more remote the last common ancestor of two organisms, the more dissimilar their pseudogenes will be.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Since there is nothing but assumptions as to how and what fish evolved to eventually become apes
Did you mean speculation? Nothing is assumed in speculating on precise pathways evolution took. We know that it went fish->amphibian->reptile ->mammal: (insectivore->lemur->monkey->ape), but those classes, orders and families of animals, not species.

It's already been pointed out to you and many other creationists that specifying pathways isn't important to the theory or necessary information, just interesting. It would be interesting to know which discovered primates were ancestral to man and which represent lines that went extinct (cousins, not ancestors), but I can't imagine how that knowledge could be put to use.
Given his original claim where he uses the word DO, do you still think I misunderstood?
I don't know, but I think that you're handling this wrong. You're not going to get what you want, and it's a bad look for you. I would have ended this long ago. My advice is to agree to disagree and move on.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
In my opinion the strongest line of evidence comes from psudogenes (broken genes)The more remote the last common ancestor of two organisms, the more dissimilar their pseudogenes will be.
I am not disagreeing. Not that I believe evolution as described by (some) scientists is true, but I can see your reasoning. I don't think that the actual changes, shall we say, can be followed by scientists. You know like from eukaryotes on upward.
 

Pogo

Well-Known Member
Yes, what i said originally, is that I understand the word agnostic to mean “I dont know and I have no reason to think that one view is more likely to be true than the other”

If you think that I am missuing the term “agnostic” that is ok, (I don’t care) feel free to use any other word.

The relevant question is, does that position (call it agnosticism or however you want) represents your view? Yes or no?.....just kidding, nobody is expecting a direct answer from you…
Then what was the nonsense about probability you brought up?
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Well near extinction and bottleneck are closely related, but not directly to multiplication of species or rapid change.

I've also used the phrase "as populations approach zero". It should be easy enough to parse the words.
If you wish to communicate your ideas it appears you will have to learn pidgin as you say...
I speak goodly pidgin. I can model Ancient Language to understand it but I can't speak it and if I went back to ancient times I probably still couldn't learn it. Since I was about three I think in pidgin like everyone else. As a child and young adult I probably could have learned an early version of Ancient Language.

It was easy enough to switch from AL to pidgin but switching back was difficult. Most individuals just spoke what they heard around the house and never changed.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
All interpretation is context. One can not have every answer but still have some specific beliefs that rise to the level of being "knowledge". Still one must know that even things he knows might not be true. I'm pretty sure there's a place called "Moscow" but I know it is constantly changing and moving. If Moscow exists then you can't visit it twice. This is the nature of reality.
Apparently you have very low criteria for "knowledge." For some claims, fantastical or magical claims, we skeptics demand considerable evidence.
No. That's old thinking. Experiment has shown that any result is possible.
No, experiments rule out untrue hypotheses.
Results aren't haphazard. There are rules chemistry and physics follow.
Remember if you toss a coin a million times every single result is just as likely as every other result. It is exactly as likely to come up heads every time as anything else.
No. Were you asleep during your intro to statistics class?
Other than free will no sort of determinism appears to apply to reality. All events appear to begin randomly at the subatomic level.
They may begin that way, but their expression is usually deterministic. When I step off the kerb, I don't sink into the street. My kitchen scale reliably reports the mass of what I weigh. Gasoline reliably burns in my car's engine.
No, I just ignored the claim because I believe it is unknowable. Until all relevant terms are defined it can't be studied. The concept of "God" arises from logic but our religious concept of "God" I believe arises from confusion
The concept of God is not a logical or evidence-based claim.
spawned by the tower of babel; the change in language. I certainly don't know and remarkably enough don't really have an opinion any longer. Just as there are no atheists in foxholes the incidence of atheism with age seems to decrease.
The tower of Babel is unevidenced folklore. Like evolution, language change is a slow accumulation of small changes.
There are atheists in foxholes, and my skepticism only increases with age.
You believe "rabbits" and individuals are interchangeable. Foxes don't eat "rabbits" and if they needed to they'd all starve. Individual foxes eat individual rabbits when they can catch them. They might notice one is tougher or chewier than another or one ran a little faster than most but they don't know if one is fitter than another. They pretty much all taste the same (like chicken).
The ones that escape the fox are probably "fitter." ;)
By removing the individual from the equation you are removing every single difference and you are removing every consciousness. If consciousness is the cause of change as I maintain (remember the least rabbit like individuals survive) then you have factored the actual cause of change in species right out of "Evolution".
You mix perceived reality with "consciousness generated" reality.
You see "fitness" where it doesn't exist. You see gradual change despite the fact all observed change in all life at every level is sudden. You are simply imagining a gradual change of whales coming out of the ocean and then returning.
Warm fur really is advantageous in arctic species. Camouflaged coloration really is advantageous in small prey species.
You keep making this claim of sudden change. I'm still waiting for evidence. The evidence I, and most biologists, paleontologists, and geologists have, is for long, gradual change, in most cases.
Well.... I believe the Bible is based on literal truth. I'm specifically referring to the Old testament as I'm unfamiliar with the New Testament. Much of it will never be understood but more of it will. Believe it or not our ancestors were not sun addled bumpkins.
Why do you believe this? It seems irrational.
The ancients were ignorant of almost everything. They knew almost nothing of how the world worked. They told stories around their campfires.
But all their foundational work was based on ancient science that they couldn't understand. They copied it without change as well as they could. But this copying resulted in some very incomprehensible things that they sometimes "smoothed over" so they made sense.
What was this ancient science? Where was the observation-based hypothesis formation, exclusionary testing, and peer review?
The ancients made up stories, passed them around, and embellished them.
Ancient science was remarkable and far more advanced than perhaps even I can imagine.
There was no ancient science. There was trial and error, at best. Human knowledge and technology advanced at a snail's pace.
But it was weak in things like chemistry, mechanics, optics, and most technology. It was very strong in things like biology, "phycology", anatomy, and zoology.
They knew nothing about most of these things.
Its nature led to understanding and the ability to manipulate the environment with minimal effort.
Yet we see no evidence of this. Oxcarts were high-tech.
But its metaphysics was language itself and this became increasingly complex as knowledge increased and it had to give way in the long run to a language that ordinary people could speak.
Huh? Please name one language that's not fully developed.
The name of the event that suddenly changed the language and gave rise to homo omnisciencis is known only as the "Tower of Babel". While I'm not really a " literalist Abrahamist creationist", I do still believe the Bible is literally true from the perspective of the natural logic of the human brain.
Balderdash! The human brain is apophenic. There was no selective advantage to the development of critical, analytic skills, or the facility for abstract thinking. These are new, unnatural skills.
While it is accurate, precise, literal, and true it still must be unraveled. Unraveling it will probably require the reinvention of ancient science and applying its knowledge to the Bible.
What on Earth are you talking about?
Reality is most highly complex. It bends to our will while still reflecting everything in existence and that has been in existence.
It bends to our will?
We aren't so complex in some ways since we each see what we believe. We act on those beliefs and eventually become them.
Some of us are skeptical. The rational need evidence before they believe.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Did you mean speculation? Nothing is assumed in speculating on precise pathways evolution took. We know that it went fish->amphibian->reptile ->mammal: (insectivore->lemur->monkey->ape), but those classes, orders and families of animals, not species.
You may claim you know because of fossils and dating, but to say it happened by chance, or selection of the fittest, is really putting things together that aren't there. In other words, reasoning about the evidence and what goes on in between may or may not be the truth about the process of evolution. Whales are probably too heavy to evolve to be land-dwellers.
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
Well near extinction and bottleneck are closely related, but not directly to multiplication of species or rapid change.
Speciation is not known to occur as a result of a population bottle neck and describing selection as a "local bottleneck" is useless and confusing since it does not describe the event taking place in selection of a trait.
If you wish to communicate your ideas it appears you will have to learn pidgin as you say otherwise you will have to leave it to our version of science unless you believe that we need to return to hunter-gatherers before some sort of renaissance.
I would not say "our version", but rather just learn science. Knowledge of science seems to be lacking and is replaced with personal belief, pseudo-philosophical meandering and the influence of putatively fictional ancient populations.
 
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