Atheists believe in miracles more than believers

[gnostic]

There are so many species because there are also local bottlenecks

you still don’t understand that bottlenecks have the tendency to reduce changes, because the size of gene pool would have restricted genetic variation, thereby reducing diversity within the populations.

bottlenecks are the exact opposite as to what you’re claiming.

 

[Valjean]

Evidently they're content to dwell in the watery deep and there is no mutation making them smaller or with big legs that can carry them on land. That's my point. They ain't evolving. Yet or now.

Everything not in Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium is evolving.

Whales were originally land dwellers. Many terrestrial species return to the water, to varying extents. I daresay many are familiar to you.

 

[gnostic]

I have always used the term "near extinction" until people insisted I use "bottleneck" instead.

Words are irrelevant. Only the intended meaning has relevancy.

I don’t understand that, too, @John53 .

How can there be meaning without words?

 

[cladking]

???? -- Why?

Most change results from species passing through bottlenecks. When this occurs all the survivors create a new species and none are around to propagate the original species. Instead of evolving species would be forever calving off new species. Localized bottlenecks would also create new species.

 

[Pogo]

It is? In what way?

Can you give examples of those organisms that manage to exploit the new conditions? I'm talking about particular examples.

The Covid virus mutated sufficiently in its prior host in the Chinese market to be able to pass from human to human, it found a new niche of 8 billion people that it didn't have before, it is doing very well and continues to evolve in its new niche.

 

[gnostic]

Us? Who is us? The only one in this forum that affirms that the eye evolved just by random mutations and natural selection is you

It’s Natural Selection, not Mutations that eyes have evolved.

And they evolved because there are light. Light provides animals with the awareness of shapes, size and colours, through complex nervous organs, which provide feedback to the brains.

Did you know that the major of animals that inhabited the bottom of very ocean floors or oceanic trenches, where no light reached these creatures? The majority of those marine organisms are eyeless that inhabit in total darkness.

New Zealand used to have no humans or other natural predators on these islands, so birds like the kiwis didn’t require to flee from predators, so not only lost the their abilities to fly, their wings have become vestigial. When humans came, bringing other animals on to the islands, their population have dwindled dramatically.

 

[YoursTrue]

mutations do not "push" an animal to survive but may allow them to survive in a different niche thus lessening the pressure from their former niche.

The finches that had larger beaks survived better when there were only harder seeds during the drought. mutation comes first, reproduction comes later. You have heard all this before.

They are still finches.

 

[YoursTrue]

The Covid virus mutated sufficiently in its prior host in the Chinese market to be able to pass from human to human, it found a new niche of 8 billion people that it didn't have before, it is doing very well and continues to evolve in its new niche.

But again -- the virus still remains a virus, doesn't it?

 

[YoursTrue]

It’s Natural Selection, not Mutations that eyes have evolved.

And they evolved because there are light. Light provides animals with the awareness of shapes, size and colours, through complex nervous organs, which provide feedback to the brains.

Did you know that the major of animals that inhabited the bottom of very ocean floors or oceanic trenches, where no light reached these creatures? The majority of those marine organisms are eyeless that inhabit in total darkness.

New Zealand used to have no humans or other natural predators on these islands, so birds like the kiwis didn’t require to flee from predators, so not only lost the their abilities to fly, their wings have become vestigial. When humans came, bringing other animals on to the islands, their population have dwindled dramatically.

Let me ask this way--are you saying that the first worms or whatever that had light cells or receptors or whatever they are called did not happen by chance (or mutation)?

 

[YoursTrue]

Probably because they evolved from land dwelling animals.

And maybe you haven't noticed that bottle-nosed dolphins are significantly smaller than blue whales.

Is that what you think might have happened, or is that what scientists say might have happened, based on evidence?

 

[gnostic]

They are still finches.

there are different species of finches, just as there are different species of falcons, or different species of tortoises, or different species of sharks, and so on.

Even among gorillas, there are currently 2 different populations of species living in Africa. One of them are more adapted to the mountains.

 

[cladking]

No. Were you asleep during your intro to statistics class?

I assume you parsed my sentence wrong because you assume in advance I'm wrong.

I'm sure you must know that each flip has about a 50:50 chance of being heads or tails so the result is as likely to be all heads as anything else whatsoever. If you don't believe me try flipping a heads then a heads then a tails, h, t, h, t, t, t, h, t, h, t, h, h, etc. I'm sure you'll quickly see it is equally easy to hit all heads.

The tower of Babel is unevidenced folklore.

I guess I stand corrected. The Bible doesn't exist and neither do the Sumerian versions. Everything you don't believe is unevidenced and everything you do believe is backed up by experiment, but you can't think of one right this minute.

They knew nothing about most of these things.

Evidence says otherwise. They invented the calendar which required math and astronomy and agriculture which required the Theory of Change in Species. They were familiar with the hydraulic cycle which required some mechanics and chemistry. They had a great deal of knowledge for which we refuse to give them credit because it would shake our belief in linear progress which Darwin needed to invent Evolution. We can't see what we don't believe just like you can't see the countless experiments that prove we can't see what we don't believe. We reason in circles which is OK if you already know everything.

What was this ancient science? Where was the observation-based hypothesis formation, exclusionary testing, and peer review?
The ancients made up stories, passed them around, and embellished them.

Ancient science was simple observational science based in language just like bee science and beaver science. It did not share our metaphysics and was dependent on logic rather than experiment.

Huh? Please name one language that's not fully developed.

Science, computer code, Bee, Gazelle, etc etc.

There was no selective advantage to the development of critical, analytic skills, or the facility for abstract thinking. These are new, unnatural skills.

Only a modern person can believe this. Even 50 ,years ago nobody would have believed such a thing.

What on Earth are you talking about?

Maybe if you read my post again you'd understand or least be able to ask a specific question.

It bends to our will?

Do you never affect reality or are you the guy sitting at the green light waiting for your accelerator to be pushed?

 

[John53]

Is that what you think might have happened, or is that what scientists say might have happened, based on evidence?

That's what the evidence points too.

I'm however all ears if you have a better way of explaining the evidence.

 

[gnostic]

Let me ask this way--are you saying that the first worms or whatever that had light cells or receptors or whatever they are called did not happen by chance (or mutation)?

don't know much about worm biology, so I can’t answer that question. Nor do I know of any worm to be the first, as worms are not something that I have explored.

 

[gnostic]

I guess I stand corrected. The Bible doesn't exist and neither do the Sumerian versions. Everything you don't believe is unevidenced and everything you do believe is backed up by experiment, but you can't think of one right this minute.

The story of Babel was invented at the time of numbers of prominent Jews from Jerusalem were living in exiles at Babylon during the 6th century BCE, where they would have witnessed the construction of the ziggurat (Etemenanki) that was commissioned by Nebuchadnezzar at that time. It would have been the largest building any of them would have seen.

Genesis was originally composed at that time, the same time they would have learned about the creation stories and flood stories from the Babylonians.

Prior to the 6th century BCE, Genesis didn’t exist, and it certainly didn’t exist in the 3rd & 2nd millennia BCE Bronze Age.

There were no Hebrew writings in the early part of the Bronze Age, certainly not around 2000 BCE.

 

[YoursTrue]

The story of Babel was invented at the time of numbers of prominent Jews from Jerusalem were living in exiles at Babylon during the 6th century BCE, where they would have witnessed the construction of the ziggurat that was commissioned by Nebuchadnezzar at that time. It would have been the largest building any of them would have seen.

Genesis was originally composed at that time, the same time they would have learned about the creation stories and flood stories from the Babylonians.

Prior to the 6th century BCE, Genesis didn’t exist, and it certainly didn’t exist in the 3rd & 2nd millennia BCE Bronze Age.

There were no Hebrew writings in the early part of the Bronze Age, certainly not around 2000 BCE.

The story about Babel or Babylon makes sense in that various groups made up stories about their gods. There was no consensus, just like today. I wasn't there but it makes sense to me about the history of religious ideas, and why God eventually intervened with the nation of Israel reflecting back to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

 

[Valjean]

It is? In what way?

A new environment, new food sources, more cover, more shelter, more water, fewer predators, better climate -- there are lots of potentially advantageous features new niches might provide.

Can you give examples of those organisms that manage to exploit the new conditions? I'm talking about particular examples.

Wolves managed to exploit the bands of apes that spread into Europe. The apes managed to exploit the sheep and goats they found. Birds exploited the air, and penguins the sea, as did polar bears and seals.
Ungulates moved onto the plains. Large cats moved in, too, to exploit the ungulates. Mosquitoes moved into the London underground,

They are still finches.

Give them a couple million years.

 

[YoursTrue]

don't know much about worm biology, so I can’t that question. Nor do I know of any worm to be the first, as worms are not something that I have explored.

me either, except I was looking up about the origin of eyes and yes, scientists say that early organisms like worms had light sensitive parts on their bodies which evidently, after a long time developed (evolved) to be eyes --

 

[YoursTrue]

A new environment, new food sources, more cover, more shelter, more water, fewer predators, better climate -- there are lots of potentially advantageous features new niches might provide.

Wolves managed to exploit the bands of apes that spread into Europe. The apes managed to exploit the sheep and goats they found. Birds exploited the air, and penguins the sea, as did polar bears and seals.
Ungulates moved onto the plains. Large cats moved in, too, to exploit the ungulates. Mosquitoes moved into the London underground,

Give them a couple million years.

I doubt it. You may not, but I do not see any (real) evidence beyond conjecture that fish evolved eventually over a long period of time to become humans. Do you think that fish are evolving now?

 

[Subduction Zone]

I doubt it. You may not, but I do not see any (real) evidence beyond conjecture that fish evolved eventually over a long period of time to become humans. Do you think that fish are evolving now?

I need to remind you that you do not know what "real evidence" is since you refuse to even discuss the concept. And please prove that it is "conjecture". I sincerely doubt if you can do that since you refuse to learn what is and what is not evidence.