Atheists, Do We Care About Our Image?

[GodlessHeathen]

Atheists are not a well-liked group around the world, barring a few countries. For example, in Brazil:

A 2009 survey showed that atheists are the most hated demographic group in Brazil, among several other minorities polled, being almost on par with drug addicts. According to the research, 17% of the interviewees stated they feel either hate or repulsion for atheists, while 25% feel antipathy and 29% are indifferent

In much of the Middle East and North Africa, simply being an atheist is punishable by death. But even in countries you would think are a bit more progressive than Saudi Arabia, nearly a fifth of Brazilians HATE atheists and another quarter feel some sort of dislike towards them. In the United States:

When participants were asked whether they agreed with the statement, "I would disapprove if my child wanted to marry a member of this group," atheists again led minorities, with 48% disapproval, followed by Muslims (34%) and African-Americans (27%).

Almost HALF of American parents would hate it if their child married an atheist. Even in a country that is gripped by Islamophobia and still suffering racial strife with African-Americans, discrimination against atheists blows all other minorities out of the water. Again, in the United States:

A 2006 study at the University of Minnesota showed atheists to be the most distrusted minority among Americans. In the study, sociologists Penny Edgell, Joseph Gerties and Douglas Hartmann conducted a survey of American public opinion on attitudes towards different groups. 40% of respondents characterized atheists as a group that "does not at all agree with my vision of American society", putting atheists well ahead of every other group, with the next highest being Muslims (26%) and homosexuals (23%).

We all know how well-liked Muslims and gays are in American society, but again discrimination against atheists is blown out of the water. And perhaps what we "suffer" is less visible because atheism is an ideology and you can't readily identify an atheist by looking at him or her. Unless, they're one of those people who put a Darwin fish on their minivan or wear those shirts with the "A" on it. I could go on listing more and more polls, but they all show the same thing in most of the world. The numbers aren't pretty.

The cause of this resentment towards us, whether it is simply religious intolerance towards us or if our negative image is (at least in part) self-inflicted, doesn't really matter. We do know that it has real-world consequences. Atheists are being executed in North Africa, the Middle East, and Southern Asia. In Russia, there are cases of atheists being committed to mental institutions for simply being atheist. And even in North America where atheists comprise a significant minority of the population (usually 25-30%), we are seeing numbers like half of entire societies hating atheists or not wanting them to marry into the family or just hating them for what they DON'T believe. I should know. I'm dating a girl whose family doesn't approve of our relationship simply because of my lack of belief.

The point of all this isn't to cry "Woe is me!" and make myself to be part of a victim class. Atheists, despite being by far the most reviled group in almost every society across the globe, have the "advantage" of being able to blend into most segments of society. So the question is, should we care about our global image? If so, what can we do as individuals or as a group to improve that image?

To answer my own question, I do think we should care about our image because this negative image has dire consequences (especially when the numbers are this bad almost uniformly across the globe). Atheists are being executed in some parts of the world. And while in the West that might not be the case, it's still the case that atheists are being discriminated against more than any other group. "Atheist" is a dirty word. Atheism by its very nature is the negative rejection of a positive claim. While it is not an institution, it is perceived as one that's causing active harm to society. And certain forms of atheism (such as strident anti-theism) can have the opposite effective of winning hearts and minds. Calling someone an idiot will not convince them you are correct, nor will it endear them to you.

I'm not advocating for a tolerance of bad ideas nor for relaxing the fight for secularism or anything of the sort. What I am advocating for is a sort of charm offensive. An offensive pro-atheism billboard in a bus isn't going to convince anyone. It will at best preach to the choir and at worst confirm people's worst suspicions of atheists. Recently I watched "God is Not Dead" with my Christian girlfriend. The depiction of atheists was so over the top anti-theistic that even in the deepest, darkest atheist forums I have been on the Internet, never have I ever encountered anything so stridently anti-theistic. But this is their honest perception of us. They seem to regard us as their enemy when really all our position says is "We think you're wrong...".

What are your thoughts?

 

[Revoltingest]

Image is important, as you pointed out.
What to do?
We can each be likable & non-threatening.
(So far, the latter is working better for me than the former.)
Useful tips:
- Don't claim to be smarter than they are.
- Tell'm we favor religious freedom too.
- Instead of arguing against their beliefs, simply explain your own.
Then, once they're comfortable around us, we can crush them, see them driven before us, & hear the lamentation of their women!

 

[Altfish]

It is difficult to do anything about it, other than slowly educate people about our ethical stances.

Atheists come in many shapes and forms; we don't have a leader(s), we don't have sacred texts, we love arguments (peaceful ones I hasten to add) and are unlikely to agree with each other.
We rarely gather together in large numbers, although The Reason Rally is trying to address that.

I think we have to point to the Scandinavian countries and say, "Look, it works here"

 

[Melinda Rose]

It is probably because atheists like to argue and others do not. Most of my friends are following their parents religion, but my parents are godless heathens. I find they do not want to argue about things that are seemingly nonsense to me, but want me to listen about their religion. Does this happen with you?

 

[Demonslayer]

- Tell'm we favor religious freedom too.

I think this is a big one. So many times in debates about religion the instant reaction is "so if you had your way you'd outlaw religion!"

Nope. Religious freedom is one of the most important things this country got right.

 

[LuisDantas]

I don't see a lot to do about it besides attempting to learn how and why they feel such a desperate need to vilify us.

If you are Brazilian, as you seem to imply, then you know how difficult it is to discuss matters here. We are a lost people in pursuit of reliable institutions. For many people belief in God is almost code for wanting to see things work and make sense.

Dispelling that confusion will unavoidably be difficult, but there is really no choice.

 

[Revoltingest]

It is probably because atheists like to argue and others do not. Most of my friends are following their parents religion, but my parents are godless heathens. I find they do not want to argue about things that are seemingly nonsense to me, but want me to listen about their religion. Does this happen with you?

I find that believers love to argue just as much.
Discussing religion & politics is how I made many of the Xian fundie friends I have.

 

[Demonslayer]

why they feel such a desperate need to vilify us.

I get it. The rapid increase of atheism is signaling, in my opinion, the death of literal religion as we know it. Yes, that's a huge generalization and no I don't think all kinds of religion will disappear.

But the real robust religion that many of us grew up with, with the idea that there is a real, literal God-being constantly watching us, and who will sometimes answer our mental requests, that there are real things called angels and demons, that certain rituals must be performed to please this God, etc, etc. This kind of belief is very rapidly dying. Kids raised in this modern era of science just won't buy into it.

I read an interesting thing not too long ago about turn of the century carnivals. Back then if the crowd caught any of the magician acts "faking" magic, they would riot and demand their money back. The majority of the population believed in real magic powers, and felt ripped off when they found out it was just slight of hand. Flash forward 100 years and everyone knows "magicians" are just performers and that there is no such thing as humans who have magical abilities.

This is what's rapidly happening with religion. So my opinion is the "desperate need to vilify us" is more of a defensive reaction to the fact that we represent the dying of something that is very important to them.

 

[GodlessHeathen]

Image is important, as you pointed out.
What to do?
We can each be likable & non-threatening.
(So far, the latter is working better for me than the former.)
Useful tips:
- Don't claim to be smarter than they are.
- Tell'm we favor religious freedom too.
- Instead of arguing against their beliefs, simply explain your own.
Then, once they're comfortable around us, we can crush them, see them driven before us, & hear the lamentation of their women!

This is very important and I agree. I don't think many theists who are so stridently against things like Sharia law realize how secularism protects them against that sort of thing and against other ideas they may disagree with filtering into the government. Generally speaking, I try to speak positively. I explain my own beliefs (or lack thereof) and explain what makes me tick, rather than going for the jugular on their beliefs. It usually becomes a more calm and productive discussion. There are cases where religious freedom is under threat and I think as atheists, if we believe in this ideal, we should make a point of vociferously defending it, even if we happen to be defending crazy Christians .

It is difficult to do anything about it, other than slowly educate people about our ethical stances.

Atheists come in many shapes and forms; we don't have a leader(s), we don't have sacred texts, we love arguments (peaceful ones I hasten to add) and are unlikely to agree with each other.
We rarely gather together in large numbers, although The Reason Rally is trying to address that.

I think we have to point to the Scandinavian countries and say, "Look, it works here"

Exactly. And because we aren't an institution or organized in any way, it makes this sort of initiative kinda difficult. However, there ARE individual atheistic organizations in most countries. Even if they don't represent all atheists, their actions will inevitably reflect on all of us.

It is probably because atheists like to argue and others do not. Most of my friends are following their parents religion, but my parents are godless heathens. I find they do not want to argue about things that are seemingly nonsense to me, but want me to listen about their religion. Does this happen with you?

I don't think there's any shortage of theists who like to argue (and they tend to do so more violently than us !). I find being open-minded goes a long way. If you are willing to hear them out, they are a little bit disarmed and don't see you as much of a threat to their fundamental beliefs, but precisely for what you are: a decent person who probably gets along with them just fine, but disagrees on at least one issue.

I don't see a lot to do about it besides attempting to learn how and why they feel such a desperate need to vilify us.

If you are Brazilian, as you seem to imply, then you know how difficult it is to discuss matters here. We are a lost people in pursuit of reliable institutions. For many people belief in God is almost code for wanting to see things work and make sense.

Dispelling that confusion will unavoidably be difficult, but there is really no choice.

Born in Canada to Portuguese parents. But I DO have a great-grandfather from São Paulo, Brazil if that helps lol. Tudo bem, meu irmão ? Yes, while the challenge will be greatest in places like the Middle East and North Africa, we can't forget that even in seemingly more civilized countries like Brazil, this is a very difficult matter to discuss. To an extent, the image of atheists spreads internationally. I'm sure if atheists were held in a more positive light in Canada and the US, for example, that might translate to a bit of an improvement for the perception of atheists in places like Brazil.

In terms of why they see the need to vilify us, I think it's more because they see us as a threat to something they're very emotionally attached to. Since we as atheists are not emotionally invested in a God, we can sometimes be rough when discussing this issue. I don't mean to say that their vilification of us is entirely our fault. But if there's something we can do to alleviate it, more people will be comfortable identifying themselves publicly as atheist and we will face less discrimination. I mean, there are seven US states where atheists are barred from running for office. What government official in their right mind is going to publicly admit they are an atheist? Very few.

 

[Augustus]

Remember when some atheists decided to 'rebrand' themselves as 'Brights'?

We shouldn't do that.

Ever.

Jesus wept.

BRIGHTS?!??

 

[GodlessHeathen]

Remember when some atheists decided to 'rebrand' themselves as 'Brights'?

We shouldn't do that.

Ever.

Jesus wept.

BRIGHTS?!??

I've never heard of this, but I don't think "rebranding" is an effective solution. We are atheists and the term "atheism" accurately describes our non-belief. Dressing it up as something it's not just because some people don't like it is not only intellectually dishonest, but cowardly. Remember when the word "queer" was used as an anti-gay slur? That community successfully took the word back to mean something generally positive or at least neutral. Remember when the word "retarded" was used as a legitimate way to describe someone with a mental disability? That word was used as an insult, so they kept changing the word. And each word they changed it to was also used as an insult. It was completely ineffective. If I hate Communism, calling its adherents Cutemunists or something isn't going to all of a sudden change my opinion of their ideology.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Atheists are not a well-liked group around the world, barring a few countries. For example, in Brazil:

In much of the Middle East and North Africa, simply being an atheist is punishable by death. But even in countries you would think are a bit more progressive than Saudi Arabia, nearly a fifth of Brazilians HATE atheists and another quarter feel some sort of dislike towards them. In the United States:

Almost HALF of American parents would hate it if their child married an atheist. Even in a country that is gripped by Islamophobia and still suffering racial strife with African-Americans, discrimination against atheists blows all other minorities out of the water. Again, in the United States:

We all know how well-liked Muslims and gays are in American society, but again discrimination against atheists is blown out of the water. And perhaps what we "suffer" is less visible because atheism is an ideology and you can't readily identify an atheist by looking at him or her. Unless, they're one of those people who put a Darwin fish on their minivan or wear those shirts with the "A" on it. I could go on listing more and more polls, but they all show the same thing in most of the world. The numbers aren't pretty.

The cause of this resentment towards us, whether it is simply religious intolerance towards us or if our negative image is (at least in part) self-inflicted, doesn't really matter. We do know that it has real-world consequences. Atheists are being executed in North Africa, the Middle East, and Southern Asia. In Russia, there are cases of atheists being committed to mental institutions for simply being atheist. And even in North America where atheists comprise a significant minority of the population (usually 25-30%), we are seeing numbers like half of entire societies hating atheists or not wanting them to marry into the family or just hating them for what they DON'T believe. I should know. I'm dating a girl whose family doesn't approve of our relationship simply because of my lack of belief.

The point of all this isn't to cry "Woe is me!" and make myself to be part of a victim class. Atheists, despite being by far the most reviled group in almost every society across the globe, have the "advantage" of being able to blend into most segments of society. So the question is, should we care about our global image? If so, what can we do as individuals or as a group to improve that image?

To answer my own question, I do think we should care about our image because this negative image has dire consequences (especially when the numbers are this bad almost uniformly across the globe). Atheists are being executed in some parts of the world. And while in the West that might not be the case, it's still the case that atheists are being discriminated against more than any other group. "Atheist" is a dirty word. Atheism by its very nature is the negative rejection of a positive claim. While it is not an institution, it is perceived as one that's causing active harm to society. And certain forms of atheism (such as strident anti-theism) can have the opposite effective of winning hearts and minds. Calling someone an idiot will not convince them you are correct, nor will it endear them to you.

I'm not advocating for a tolerance of bad ideas nor for relaxing the fight for secularism or anything of the sort. What I am advocating for is a sort of charm offensive. An offensive pro-atheism billboard in a bus isn't going to convince anyone. It will at best preach to the choir and at worst confirm people's worst suspicions of atheists. Recently I watched "God is Not Dead" with my Christian girlfriend. The depiction of atheists was so over the top anti-theistic that even in the deepest, darkest atheist forums I have been on the Internet, never have I ever encountered anything so stridently anti-theistic. But this is their honest perception of us. They seem to regard us as their enemy when really all our position says is "We think you're wrong...".

What are your thoughts?

It would be better if atheists weren't imprisoned or executed for being atheists or expressing their views, but:

- there's a huge double standard at play. I've said before that in terms of extremism, the theistic equivalent of someone like Richard Dawkins would probably be an Anglican priest who people generally regarded as way too boring and a bit too liberal and inclusionary in his beliefs. I think that "tone policing" ourselves to the point where theists consider us inoffensive would really amount to silencing ourselves.

- at some level, a faithless person just going about their lives without suffering any ill effects is going to undermine the beliefs of someone who considers belief in God to be as necessary as breathing, so even our mere existence is going to make some theists mad.

 

[Demonslayer]

Remember when some atheists decided to 'rebrand' themselves as 'Brights'?

Like high-beams?

 

[GodlessHeathen]

It would be better if atheists weren't imprisoned or executed for being atheists or expressing their views, but:

- there's a huge double standard at play. I've said before that in terms of extremism, the theistic equivalent of someone like Richard Dawkins would probably be an Anglican priest who people generally regarded as way too boring and a bit too liberal and inclusionary in his beliefs. I think that "tone policing" ourselves to the point where theists consider us inoffensive would really amount to silencing ourselves.

- at some level, a faithless person just going about their lives without suffering any ill effects is going to undermine the beliefs of someone who considers belief in God to be as necessary as breathing, so even our mere existence is going to make some theists mad.

I agree 100% with your second point. There will be some who we just can't convince. But I don't see this as tone policing. More of an appeal to not be intentionally inflammatory, but still advocate for secularism and against bad ideas.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I agree 100% with your second point. There will be some who we just can't convince. But I don't see this as tone policing. More of an appeal to not be intentionally inflammatory, but still advocate for secularism and against bad ideas.

Just the word "atheists" by itself is viewed as intentionally inflammatory:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friend...ost-inoffensive-atheist-bus-ad-ever-rejected/

I'll follow my own ethics when deciding how to act, and that includes not being a jerk to people without good reason.

... but since that story broke in 2012, I've realized the folly of guiding myself by trying to be inoffensive to people who consider even the idea of atheism to be offensive. If they're annoyed, too bad. My objective at this stage is to neutralize their power to take their frustrations out against atheists, not to win them over.

Edit: it's impossible to advocate for secularism without being seen as intentionally inflammatory to a large group of people.

 

[Revoltingest]

I think that "tone policing" ourselves to the point where theists consider us inoffensive would really amount to silencing ourselves.

There's no need to silence ourselves in order to be more engaging & less threatening.
To be completely inoffensive to all is not possible anyway, so that's not an option.

 

[morphesium]

There was a time once when the world was filled with darkness - when the world was deeply religious (in almost every corner of the world), where an atheist would have been stoned to death, or would be put at stake, torture etc. Hopefully, things are not the same any more - things have changed for the better (except in some islamic countries) .

If a present day Christian who believes in heliocentric theory (most of the Christians i believe), or believes in evolution happens to walk into a church just a 150 years ago and speaks about this- then the priest himself would say something like this - "Put him at stake! that man is talking against the bible!, don't give him a chance/ time to speak".

I am sure, in the future even the kids of these religious people would have far lesser reasons to believe in their religion. They will be more advanced - morally, scientifically, technologically , ethically and rationally.

Its just -an atheist is way a head of their times. The world will follow them one day.

 

[Sunstone]

What are your thoughts?

I have several thoughts about whether we should care about our image, but I don't have the time this morning to share them. I've got a Bible burning at 10:00, and a baby sacrifice and BBQ at noon.

 

[Deathbydefault]

What are your thoughts?

If someone is stupid enough to judge who we are based on their own willful ignorance, that's on them.
I rarely associate myself with such people, and treat them the same way they treat me.
They don't like that. I don't care.

 

[Demonslayer]

and a baby sacrifice and BBQ at noon

Don't forget the Worcestershire sauce.