ecco
Veteran Member
See post #560 and others. It's not worth my time to repeat my posts showing the contradictory versus.
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Atheists have faith.
- Thread starter TransmutingSoul
- Start date
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I linked to that article because it does a good job of explaining how the Bible says that Jesus is not God, and he did not just select ONE verse like you did so he was not cherry picking.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
There are no Bible verses that say that Jesus is God, only a few verses that have been misinterpreted so Christians can try to claim that Jesus is God. If this subject is of any importance to you I suggest that you watch this video.
ecco
Veteran Member
So what. For everything that a Abdulbaha says there are biblical scholars who say the opposite. In any case, Abdulbaha is not one of God's Messengres.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Fully God or just a perfect reflection of God? To mere mortals, not much difference.
But Jesus sure seems to be presented as being more than just a reflection of God. So I can't blame Christians for assuming he was God.
Where does the Bible agree with it? You think Colossians 2:9 does?
But, I'm okay with Jesus being a reflection of God's attributes and perfections. I just don't believe Baha'is when they say that others that they claim to be manifestations were perfect reflections of God. Like show me how Moses and Muhammad fit this description of being perfect reflections of God? Prophets? Sure. But manifestations?
I do not think any Athiest has offered in this OP the depth of what it is to offer virtues and morals in deeds.
Why is it that people with same nature an nurture will practice morals and virtues to a greater or lesser degree?
Regards Tony
Why is it that people with same nature an nurture will practice morals and virtues to a greater or lesser degree?
Regards Tony
What was reflected by Jesus's is all we can know of God, to the extent God chose to reflect in that age.
Regards Tony
All the passages that explain Jesus, Christ, the Holy Spirit and God are explained by the Sun and Mirrors analogy.
Regards Tony
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That is your choice.
I will offer that there has never been a human on this earth, to date, that would match the person and knowledge of Abdul-baha. Abdul'baha was a gift from God an example of our potential.
That is not inclusive of the Self of God known as the Messengers, who are not men like us, they are all we can know about God.
Regards Tony
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ecco
Veteran Member
What two people have the same "nature an nurture"? From a DNA standpoint, that is impossible.
Therefore, it should not befuddle you that their morals and values are different.
ecco
Veteran Member
Your comments are really confusing. You claim Jesus was a Mesenger unlike any other...
You have also claimed that Baháʼu'lláh was unlike any of God's Messengers. Now you seem to be elevating Baháʼu'lláh's son to that same highest of high standings.
Is this based on edicts from the on high governors of Bahai or is this just your gut feelings?
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Well, not that Baha'is take the Bible stories literally, but in case they were... What is "reflected" about God? Obey or be killed? Then when Baha'is say all religions are true and from God, we have Elijah kill all the prophets of Baal, because they follow a false God. Religion, to me, was used to compel people to obey. Almost more than do good. That's why in these ancient religions, I think they were very much made to fit the culture and the needs of that society but not by God, but by the religious and political leaders of that society.
But there was also a fear built in to get people to do good, like with the Christian concept of Satan and hell. Then in Hinduism with having to keep being reborn until the person finally gets it right.
Even with the Baha'i Faith, people are expected to do the obligatory prayers, the fast and attend the feast and Holy day gatherings. So ritual practices become part of "obeying". But, like with other religions, too many people do those things and don't internalize the spiritual things, like being loving and kind people. They just do the outward things. So there again is something that Atheist see and know... The problem of nominal believers that live a hypocritical life. So virtuous believers in any religion are in the minority. So lack of following and obeying God by the believers themselves is not a good sign. How deeply do they really believe?
The Messenger of God is more than human, the virgin birth was one way to explain a Messenger from God, though they are born from the womb, they one and all are born of the Holy Sprit, we are human born of the Human Spirit, we need to be born again into that Holy Spirit.
The Bab offered it loke.this to the ruler of Persia.
"....The substance wherewith God hath created Me is not the clay out of which others have been formed. He hath conferred upon Me that which the worldly-wise can never comprehend, nor the faithful discover..."
(Epistle to Muhammad Shah, Selections from the Writings of the Báb)
Every Messenger is the same, they are all we can know.of God, they are all One with God.
Regards Tony
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
As long as Baha'is keep saying that, I will continue to argue against it. The lives of Adam, Noah, Abraham and even Moses, and maybe even Muhammad don't reflect a perfect God... They all seem very much just like any other human. They all had the same character flaws. Yet, God used them anyway... kind of. But with those early Biblical people, were they even real? Or, were they just legends? I could easily believe that they never existed but were made up to tell a story. A story starting with the creation of the world to the entering of the "Promised" land. And if they were manifestations, why not Jacob/Israel? Or, Melchizedek? Or, David?
Then, with the many, many prophets in the Bible, Baha'is come up with a lessor category for them. But what other religion has those kinds of prophets? What about sages and gurus of Hinduism? Or what about their several incarnations of Gods? To me, like I said, it's very possible that ancient people just made up stuff about who and what the Gods were. Like the religions had a God for the Sun or the Earth or for the rain. They made up their Gods and religion to fit their culture.
My post offered this about Abdul'baha.
"That is not inclusive of the Self of God known as the Messengers, who are not men like us, they are all we can know about God."
So it does not compares Abdul'baha with a Messenger of God.
Abdul'baha means "Servant of Baha" and that was the station that was gifted by Baha'u'llah, the perfect example of what it is to have Faith.
The station of Abdul'baha is unique, it is the first time such a station has been bestowed by a Messenger and Baha'u'llah said we are to turn to Abdul'baha if we want to know what it is to have faith, Abdul'baha is the perfect example of what it is to have Faith
Abdul'baha said to us,
"Look at me, follow me, be as I am; take no thought for yourselves or your lives, whether ye eat or whether ye sleep, whether ye are comfortable, whether ye are well or ill, whether ye are with friends or foes, whether ye receive praise or blame; for all these things ye must care not at all. Look at me and be as I am; ye must die to yourselves and to the world, so ye shall be born again and enter the kingdom of heaven. Behold the candle, how it gives light. It weeps its life away drop by drop in order to give forth its flame of light."
Compilations, Bahá’í Scriptures, p. 502
This is what he said Baha'u'llah bestowed upon him as the "Mystery of God".
"My name is ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, my identity is ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, my qualification is ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, my reality is ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, my praise is ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Thraldom to the Blessed Perfection is my glorious refulgent diadem; and servitude to all the human race is my perpetual religion."
‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Tablets of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá v2, p. 429
This year is the 100 year commemoration of.his passing. Abdul'baha spent 239 days in America, telling them how to embrace peace. It is fact that most Americans in that time would have read about him in the press.
Regards Tony
It has always been a choice CG and that is why the Church built doctrine. God leaves our reactions to faith up to us, but always puts guiding lights amongst us.
It is a consequence of our failure to turn to God'that results in the killing of innocent people, not the other way round, so looking back we can see that even people who claimed a faith and unjustly persecuted and killed others were not following the faith they claimed and those that killed the followers of the new Faith had neglected their own.
I choose to look into the metaphor of what you mentioned above about Elijah.
Jesus said Elijah always comes first to prepare the way, in this age that was the Bab.
The message they give is severing all past faiths from their doctrines, thus in this reality they are killing off all past Messengers, just as it is recorded in Scriptures, but just seen in a different frame of reference.
Regards Tony
It is a healthy fear CG, built from love and not hate.
It is a fear that one's thoughts or actions are contrary to Love, a fear that Love will be lost.
There has been unfortunate doctrines built from that fear.
This is what Baha'u'llah offers the structure of this reality is built upon.
"O people of God! That which traineth the world is Justice, for it is upheld by two pillars, reward and punishment. These two pillars are the sources of life to the world." – Baha’u’llah, Tablets of Baha’u’llah
and
"Justice hath a mighty force at its command. It is none other than reward and punishment for the deeds of men. By the power of this force the tabernacle of order is established throughout the world, causing the wicked to restrain their natures for fear of punishment." – Baha’u’llah, Tablets of Baha’u’llah
So this is the result.
"..With force and punishments, material civilization seeketh to restrain the people from mischief, from inflicting harm on society and committing crimes. But in a divine civilization, the individual is so conditioned that with no fear of punishment, he shunneth the perpetration of crimes, seeth the crime itself as the severest of torments, and with alacrity and joy, setteth himself to acquiring the virtues of humankind, to furthering human progress, and to spreading light across the world." – Selections from the Writings of Abdu’l-Baha, p. 133.
Regards Tony
All I can offer is the Kitab-i-iqan CG, but if one does not look at metaphor, all these books are near impossible to begin to comprehend.
Baha'u'llah has explained why the Messengers do not appear to be perfectly the same.
It is all about the twin pillars of reward and punishment, what this reality is built upon.
The last Hidden Word in the book the Hidden Words and the passage following, really offers it all.
"O MY SERVANT! The best of men are they that earn a livelihood by their calling and spend upon themselves and upon their kindred for the love of God, the Lord of all worlds.
The mystic and wondrous Bride, hidden ere this beneath the veiling of utterance, hath now, by the grace of God and His divine favor, been made manifest even as the resplendent light shed by the beauty of the Beloved. I bear witness, O friends! that the favor is complete, the argument fulfilled, the proof manifest and the evidence established. Let it now be seen what your endeavors in the path of detachment will reveal. In this wise hath the divine favor been fully vouchsafed unto you and unto them that are in heaven and on earth. All praise to God, the Lord of all Worlds."
There is no excuse for any person, this is Judgement Day CG, we aim for the reward for the good of all, or we embrace the punishment, this life offers it all.
Regards Tony
joelr
Well-Known Member
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Nope. No faith there whatsoever. First a person may feel better when they act in a way that helps others. They may feel proud, helpful or whatever. So that is an immediate reward and is a tangible thing. No faith.
Also, a person may act this way because it brings good things to them. They have demonstrable evidence that acting well towards other people will bring them friends, situations that will be helpful and all sorts of positive outcomes. Making friends is fulfilling but also practical to have people in many areas of life who could be helpful in the future. Either for friendship or help, favors, networking, whatever.
All of these things have demonstrable outcomes. No one is practicing good morals with the "hope" that something good might come? We know that this leads to all sorts of positive outcomes? It reduces stress. It reduces enemies, conflicts, arguments, helps with negotiations and encourages other to want to work with you in a professional or personal capacity.
This comes with it's own rewards and the outcomes are not "faith" based. We have examples from ourselves and others about what these actions lead to. So there isn't anything on faith here?
Since we know these actions help the betterment of humanity through actual evidence it's not faith. It's evidence.
Since we have endless lines of evidence that being of service to humanity is beneficial in many ways, what is left over that you would think to call faith?
And if service to humanity is "faith" then what about not serving humanity? Both are just choices and actions. If service to humanity was faith then the opposite would also be faith? Everything would be faith?
Why do you insist on re-defining faith? Faith is when you have a story with no real evidence that it's true but you want it to be true so you just decide to believe it on "faith".
I could do this with Thor from the Marvel universe. I could say he really is real and the writers of the movie were inspired to create a character who looks and speaks exactly like him. So the Thor in the movie is exactly like the real Thor. Thor wanted to communicate to us and influenced the movie production. This is true. I know it because my heart tells me so (I speak to him in prayer) and I have faith. That is what religious faith is and what it's used as.