Atheists: If God existed…

[Bird123]

You have made an assumption that those holy books are not the truth but instead you BELIEVE you can Discover the Truth for yourself. Once you have chosen that Discover the Truth for yourself is the truth, you have built your life around Discover the Truth for yourself. Why? You Want Discover the Truth for yourself to be the truth. Since you want Discover the Truth for yourself to be the truth, you no longer question. You have accepted. Search within yourself. Discover Why you want Discover the Truth for yourself to be the truth.

Everyone learns but what they learn is not always the Truth. So do you think you know what my actions are indicative of rather than what I believe they are indicative of?

I Understand what you have been telling me but I do not agree. Do you assume that if I understood I would agree given enough time?

You want your belief in Discovering the Truth for yourself to be true. In Discovering anything, everything must add up. Everything about God does add up in the holy books. You just do not understand what is in them or you disagree with them, so you make things up about God to suit your own purposes. In effect, you create a God in your own image, the kind of God you want God to be. Meanwhile, the real God is represented in the scriptures of the great world religions.

That is true, but some people change for the better whereas other people change for the worse. With guidance from God people change for the better; without it anything is possible.

They can point others in a direction that they believe is right, but it might not be right for the other person. It is not my goal to change anyone. I just share my own experiences and what I believe and people might learn from that or not. The same happens to me when others share.

I have also discovered much in life by living through many kinds of experiences, but there is much left to be discovered and learned. Questioning is good; there is nothing inherently wrong with questioning anything, even God, but questioning does not necessarily lead to the Truth. It can just as easily lead one astray. If you think that everything that you Discover is the Real Truth you must think you are infallible and thus can never be wrong.

God is not revealing anything to you; God only reveals Himself and His Will to Messengers of God. That means what you think you have discovered about God is illusory.

God’s wrath is not only revealed in MY religion, it was also revealed in the Bible and the Qur’an. So you know more than these holy books? God’s way is not Your Way. God has wrath when it is deserved. You cannot change that by imagining a God who never gets angry. That is not Reality.

So there we have it. You think you know more than the Prophets of God. Your road to Discovery had taken a turn in the wrong direction. You do not know more than the great religions. You just think you do.

True religion has the solutions to mankind’s problems and helps mankind solve their own problems.

The answer is justice, not payback. That is in the hands of an able attorney.

God did not point anything out to you because you are not a Prophet. I did not say anything about hating or getting the evil tenant. I said that I hope justice is served, if not in this world in the next.

your quote:Everything about God does add up in the holy books
My answer: How can you say it adds up when you can't explain why your god is wrathful? Cause he wants to be is not good math.

Clearly, you are blind to anything but your beliefs. If you really knew God, you would see that those holy books you speak so proudly of do not come from Him.

Ego gets in the way of so much learning. Do not allow it to keep you from moving forward.

Prophets and holy books. God has never needed either of them. Why would you think God would need a middle man between Him and His children?

Don't you see? Those beliefs do not add up in so many ways.

It is going to take you some time to free yourself from the box you have placed yourself in. That's OK! There is no time limit on learning.

Yes. That is what I am seeing with you.

 

[Trailblazer]

my quote:Everything about God does add up in the holy books

your answer: How can you say it adds up when you can't explain why your god is wrathful? Cause he wants to be is not good math.

The reason God is wrathful is because some people warrant God's wrath. God does not need to make excuses for His wrath.
God is infallible so God knows when His wrath is warranted.

Clearly, you are blind to anything but your beliefs. If you really knew God, you would see that those holy books you speak so proudly of do not come from Him.

Ego gets in the way of so much learning. Do not allow it to keep you from moving forward.

You are clearly blind you your beliefs, they just are not religious beliefs, they are made up beliefs.
You cannot know God without a holy book that comes from Prophet.

Prophets and holy books. God has never needed either of them. Why would you think God would need a middle man between Him and His children?

God is not the One who needs the middleman; humans are the one who need the middleman.
We need a middleman because we could never understand God any other way.

Don't you see? Those beliefs do not add up in so many ways.

It is going to take you some time to free yourself from the box you have placed yourself in. That's OK! There is no time limit on learning.

You do not believe that my beliefs add up, but that does not mean they do not add up, because that is just your personal opinion.
I am in no box. I have a belief that is very wide open.

Yes. That is what I am seeing with you.

But you do not see me as I am, just the way you think I am.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

No, it is not the same. No religion is above any other religion, some are just newer.

You say that, but there are many religious institutions that would disagree with you. Most popular religions assert their superiority.

Name some religions that make that claim.

Mormons, Quakers, Taoists.

I trust Baha’u’llah because of the evidence that indicates that He was a Manifestation of God.

And what is this evidence?

Because they can be verified by my own research.

How?

I never said it is impossible that I am wrong, I said it seems like it would be impossible.

That's a lie. You didn't use the word "seems", you just said "it is":

"In my mind, it is impossible that what I believe about Baha’u’llah is not true, because there is too much evidence that shows that He was who He claimed to be."

I have demonstrated to myself that my beliefs are true, but it is not my job to demonstrate that to anyone else. If people want to know, they have to do their own investigation.

But you understand that your perception and conclusions may be flawed or incorrect, right?

I only ever said that if you want to prove to me that my beliefs are not true, you will have to prove that to me.

But I don't. It is incumbent upon you to prove (or, at least, demonstrate) that they ARE true.

I verified it by reading books and websites. How else could I know?

And how did you verify what the books and websites said was true?

That’s not true, I already told you if you could discredit Baha’u’llah that would prove the Baha’i Faith is wrong.

And if you can prove my cousin is not a genie, that would prove my cousin is not a genie. Can you do that?

You could discredit Baha’u’llah that would prove the Baha’i Faith is false. Prove He was a liar or a con-man or deluded but use accurate sources, not calumny.

Can you prove my cousin is not a genie?

I could, if he could not perform as a genie.

False. Just because he doesn't "act like" a genie or perform magic doesn't mean he isn't a genie. He could simply be a genie that chooses not to do those things.

Prove he is not a genie.

Baha’u’llah came in recent history. If Baha’u’llah was a liar or a con-man or deluded you could prove it.

No more than you can prove my cousin isn't a genie, which you are obviously not able to do so. So it's a unfalsifiable claim, so waiting for it to be disproven is just a way to prevent yourself from being wrong.

If others are claiming it is false, it is incumbent upon others to demonstrate it is false.

We don't have to claim it's false if there is insufficient reason to believe that it's true. Since you've given me no reason, I can safely conclude that there is no good reason to accept it as true. It is not required for me to demonstrate a claim as false if it utterly fails to demonstrate itself to be true.

I already demonstrated to myself that it is true and I have justification that is sufficient for me.

Lots of religious individuals say this. How have you verified your beliefs any better than anyone who may believe something that is wrong?

That is where I am at in this moment in time, but I also said that if you could prove it is false I would admit it is false and walk away.

And I've already explained that this is impossible, because proving a negative cannot be done in this case.

I told you I believe because of the evidence and I listed the categories of evidence. That is a sufficient reason for me to believe.

No, you just listed claims. You presented absolutely no reason to accept those claims, you just said "X say Y" and gave no indication of why you believed X.

I have already demonstrated it is true to myself.

Good for you.

I gave you the reason, evidence. This will be the last post I answer because I have determined you are just playing games. I do not have time for games, only for sincere people.

I've asked you to present the evidence dozens of times now, and the best you've given me is "a thing says so". I don't care if a thing says so. I care about how you figured out the thing was accurate.

You are misrepresenting me again. I never said it was impossible for me to be wrong. I said I could be wrong if I was proven wrong.

You said:

"In my mind, it is impossible that what I believe about Baha’u’llah is not true, because there is too much evidence that shows that He was who He claimed to be."

And since you cannot prove a negative, you cannot be proven wrong, so you are close-minded.

Who are YOU to tell me what I have evaluated, after I already explained several times that I critically evaluated the evidence?

If you have already critically evaluated it, then you should be able to explain the process of how you did that. Instead, literally all you have done is make a bunch of claims and support them with "a thing said so". That's not critical evaluation.

I am under no obligation to provide evidence for you. The evidence is available for everyone to look at for themselves.

But apparently not open to critical evaluation, hence why you apparently skipped that step and just took the "evidence" at its word.

Again, my cousin is a genie. Unless you can prove that my cousin isn't a genie, you must accept the proposition. Right?

 

[HonestJoe]

You are correct. It can be used either way. You can believe you know something without proof just as I can believe that. Since it cannot be proven as a fact, how can we know what is true? It is conceivable that we think we know and we are wrong.

Doesn't that render any specific belief about the existence (or non-existence) of any particular god or gods irrational? Why do you want or need to believe in any gods at all?

That is precisely why extensive research and investigation is necessary before we should ever believe in any given religion.

That's the path of evidence and proof that you've been explicitly dismissing out of hand though. If you can't present the results of that research and investigation to a neutral party in support of your conclusions, it doesn't mean anything more than your blind faith.

It is our job to try to determine which God is the one true God, if we want to know.

That presumes there is such a thing as gods, that there is only one of them, that it is a "one true God" (whatever that actually means) and that it cares whether we believe in it and that it wants us to do (or not do) anything in particular. That is a heck of a list of assumptions to start off from.

Why would I believe in a religion if I had no facts about it?

Emotion, fear, desire to belong, indoctrination, perceived personal benefit? Basically the same kind of reasons we all do and think all sorts of irrational things. Human intelligence and imagination is a two-edged sword.

I have awareness of and familiarity with the Baha’i Faith because I have facts. I also have awareness of and familiarity with Baha’u’llah because I have facts. These facts are available to everyone, although it behooves them to separate facts from fiction, because some people, especially Christians and Muslims, make stuff up in order to discredit the Baha'i Faith, hoping people will "just believe" them and not do the necessary research.

Some of them probably say exactly the same kind of thing about you and your faith and on that you're probably all a bit right. The fact remains that you disagree on very minor details in the grand scheme of all the possibilities.

 

[Bird123]

The reason God is wrathful is because some people warrant God's wrath. God does not need to make excuses for His wrath.
God is infallible so God knows when His wrath is warranted.

You are clearly blind you your beliefs, they just are not religious beliefs, they are made up beliefs.
You cannot know God without a holy book that comes from Prophet.

God is not the One who needs the middleman; humans are the one who need the middleman.
We need a middleman because we could never understand God any other way.

You do not believe that my beliefs add up, but that does not mean they do not add up, because that is just your personal opinion.
I am in no box. I have a belief that is very wide open.

But you do not see me as I am, just the way you think I am.

your quote:
The reason God is wrathful is because some people warrant God's wrath. God does not need to make excuses for His wrath.
God is infallible so God knows when His wrath is warranted
My Answer: Where are your answers that are supposed to add up?? If your god is wrathful, he needs to come up with those excuses because there is no need for god to be wrathful.

People have wrath when they can not control the actions of another. Is your god having a control problem? Oh, I get it. You expect me or anybody to believe or accept the blank check of whatever god wants never question it because he is God. Clearly, you are not one who seeks the Real Truth when questions can be dismissed in such a way.

your quote:
You are clearly blind you your beliefs, they just are not religious beliefs, they are made up beliefs.
You cannot know God without a holy book that comes from Prophet.
My Answer:On a true journey to Discover the Real Truth, one must be open to all possibilities even those possibilities one might not agree with.

Real Truth will always add up. Made up beliefs will not add up. To find an example of made up beliefs one only needs to look in those holy books. They think God has wrath. Do you really think God didn't know how a person would turn out after creating them? Your belief flaws are everywhere. Teaching wrath is teaching Hate. Is there really any need for God to Hate?? Of course not!

In reality, one will never really Understand God with holy books simply because they do not Understand God.

your quote:We need a middleman because we could never understand God any other way.
My Answer: You might just be surprised. Neither God nor us need middlemen. It's the middlemen that need the people to believe. Without belief, religions have nothing. Why? They have nothing else.

your quote:But you do not see me as I am, just the way you think I am
My Answer:Just as one can Discover God through God's actions, one can Discover you through your actions. I see who you are and the box you have placed yourself in?

My advice? Accept less and Question more. Anyone who seeks the Real Truth should have a million questions. Cause God says so or can will never be an acceptable answer to settle on.

That's the Clear Picture I am seeing.

 

[Trailblazer]

And what is this evidence?

You asked me that two posts ago. I answered it.
The evidence for Baha’u’llah being a Manifestation of God is as follows:

What He was like as a person (His character);
What He did during His mission on earth;
The history of His Cause, from the time He appeared moving forward;
The scriptures that were attributed to Him or scriptures that He wrote;
What others have written about Him;
The Bible prophecies that He fulfilled by His coming,
The prophecies of other religions that He fulfilled by His coming;
The predictions He made that have come to pass;
The religion that He established (followers), what they have done and are doing now.​

How?

Reading.

That's a lie. You didn't use the word "seems", you just said "it is":

"In my mind, it is impossible that what I believe about Baha’u’llah is not true, because there is too much evidence that shows that He was who He claimed to be."

I said “In my mind, it is.” In other words, it is what I believe is true in my mind.
Do you have a problem with what is in my mind?

But you understand that your perception and conclusions may be flawed or incorrect, right?

Anyone can be wrong about anything because humans are fallible.

But I don't. It is incumbent upon you to prove (or, at least, demonstrate) that they ARE true.

I already demonstrated it to myself.

No more than you can prove my cousin isn't a genie, which you are obviously not able to do so. So it's a unfalsifiable claim, so waiting for it to be disproven is just a way to prevent yourself from being wrong.

You could prove it if it was true just like I can prove Jim Jones was a false prophet.

We don't have to claim it's false if there is insufficient reason to believe that it's true. Since you've given me no reason, I can safely conclude that there is no good reason to accept it as true. It is not required for me to demonstrate a claim as false if it utterly fails to demonstrate itself to be true.

I am not going to give you a reason; you have to find your own reason. Beliefs do not demonstrate themselves to be true, people demonstrate them to be true, or not.

Lots of religious individuals say this. How have you verified your beliefs any better than anyone who may believe something that is wrong?

Reading.

And I've already explained that this is impossible, because proving a negative cannot be done in this case.

No, it is not impossible. It is impossible to prove God does not exist but it is not impossible to prove Baha’u’llah was a false prophet like I can prove Jim Jones was a false prophet.

No, you just listed claims. You presented absolutely no reason to accept those claims, you just said "X say Y" and gave no indication of why you believed X.

I listed NO claims. I listed categories of evidence people can research if they are interested.

I've asked you to present the evidence dozens of times now, and the best you've given me is "a thing says so". I don't care if a thing says so. I care about how you figured out the thing was accurate.

I listed the categories of evidence twice now. You can research any of those yourself if you want to. I don’t do other people’s homework.

You said:
"In my mind, it is impossible that what I believe about Baha’u’llah is not true, because there is too much evidence that shows that He was who He claimed to be."

And since you cannot prove a negative, you cannot be proven wrong, so you are close-minded.

Label me whatever you want to, I don’t care, because I know I am not closed-minded. I can be proven wrong just as I explained. Dig up some dirt on Baha’u’llah.

If you have already critically evaluated it, then you should be able to explain the process of how you did that. Instead, literally all you have done is make a bunch of claims and support them with "a thing said so". That's not critical evaluation.

Reading and evaluating what I read. That is how people learn stuff.

But apparently not open to critical evaluation, hence why you apparently skipped that step and just took the "evidence" at its word.

You have no idea what I did, yet you speak for me as if you know. How arrogant.

 

[Trailblazer]

Doesn't that render any specific belief about the existence (or non-existence) of any particular god or gods irrational? Why do you want or need to believe in any gods at all?

No, not if God exists. The reason to believe in God is because God exists.

That's the path of evidence and proof that you've been explicitly dismissing out of hand though. If you can't present the results of that research and investigation to a neutral party in support of your conclusions, it doesn't mean anything more than your blind faith.

You can present your results to a neutral party but they might not accept it.

That presumes there is such a thing as gods, that there is only one of them, that it is a "one true God" (whatever that actually means) and that it cares whether we believe in it and that it wants us to do (or not do) anything in particular. That is a heck of a list of assumptions to start off from.

No, it presumes there might be one true God. Once we determine that, if we do, then we find out what it cares about and wants us to do.

Emotion, fear, desire to belong, indoctrination, perceived personal benefit? Basically the same kind of reasons we all do and think all sorts of irrational things. Human intelligence and imagination is a two-edged sword.

Maybe some people believe for those reasons but I don’t. I never had a desire to believe in God, I just stumbled upon the Baha’i Faith researched it and believed it.

Some of them probably say exactly the same kind of thing about you and your faith and on that you're probably all a bit right. The fact remains that you disagree on very minor details in the grand scheme of all the possibilities.

Maybe they do, but that is why we have to do a thorough investigation and determine for ourselves what is actually true. What other religions do has no bearing on the Baha’i Faith, logically speaking.

We all agree on the spiritual verities because they are the same in all the major religions. What we differ on is the primary message of the Prophet Founder and we also have different social teachings and laws.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

You asked me that two posts ago. I answered it.
The evidence for Baha’u’llah being a Manifestation of God is as follows:

What He was like as a person (His character);
What He did during His mission on earth;
The history of His Cause, from the time He appeared moving forward;
The scriptures that were attributed to Him or scriptures that He wrote;
What others have written about Him;
The Bible prophecies that He fulfilled by His coming,
The prophecies of other religions that He fulfilled by His coming;
The predictions He made that have come to pass;
The religion that He established (followers), what they have done and are doing now.​

​

And how have you verified any of this as being true?

Reading.

How have you verified that what you have read is true?

I said “In my mind, it is.” In other words, it is what I believe is true in my mind.
Do you have a problem with what is in my mind?

So you agree that "in your mind" you believe it true that it is impossible for you to be wrong about Baha'ullah?

Anyone can be wrong about anything because humans are fallible.

And yet you asserted that you believed it was impossible for you to be wrong about Baha'ullah. Do you now retract that statement?

I already demonstrated it to myself.

Lots of people demonstrate delusions to themselves all the time. The question is what steps you have taken to ensure what you believe is accurate.

You could prove it if it was true just like I can prove Jim Jones was a false prophet.

Neither is true. Just because you can't prove something doesn't mean it isn't true, and you cannot produce evidence that Jim Jones was a false prophet.

I am not going to give you a reason; you have to find your own reason. Beliefs do not demonstrate themselves to be true, people demonstrate them to be true, or not.

So how have people demonstrated them to be true?

Reading.

Again, how have you verified that what you have read is true?

No, it is not impossible. It is impossible to prove God does not exist but it is not impossible to prove Baha’u’llah was a false prophet like I can prove Jim Jones was a false prophet.

Please explain how, then. Provide a simple way to demonstrate that Baha'ullah or Jim Jones were false prophets.

I listed NO claims. I listed categories of evidence people can research if they are interested.

Stating that prophecies were fulfilled is a claim. Stating that you know is his character is a claim. Stating that he made predictions that have come true is a claim.

I listed the categories of evidence twice now. You can research any of those yourself if you want to. I don’t do other people’s homework.

How about doing your own? So far, you've given no indication you've done anything other than blindly accept what you have read. If you did some research to verify what you read, what was that research?

Label me whatever you want to, I don’t care, because I know I am not closed-minded. I can be proven wrong just as I explained. Dig up some dirt on Baha’u’llah.

You already said it was impossible for you to be wrong about Baha'ullah. Which is it?

Reading and evaluating what I read. That is how people learn stuff.

And how did you evaluate it?

You have no idea what I did, yet you speak for me as if you know. How arrogant.

I don't know, which is why I've repeatedly asked you how you know and all you can do is tell me "I read stuff". You've given no indication that you have done anything other than blindly accept some stuff you read, and you avoid the question of how you verified them every time.

That's not a good sign.
Neither is claiming that it's impossible for you to be wrong about something.
Neither is stating that people should "prove you wrong" before you critically evaluate or question your own beliefs.

 

[HonestJoe]

No, not if God exists. The reason to believe in God is because God exists.

That is literal circular reasoning. You could also say the reason to disbelieve in God is because God doesn't exist and be just as meaningful. The simple fact remains that your specific faith is no more (or less) valid than any other specific faith and so there is no rational reason to choose any one over all of the others.

No, it presumes there might be one true God.

There is no "might be" is any of your beliefs, you are very definitive in your God and your faith being the one true one. The list of presumptions apply to you just as they apply to dedicated followers of all the other revealed religions.

Maybe they do, but that is why we have to do a thorough investigation and determine for ourselves what is actually true. What other religions do has no bearing on the Baha’i Faith, logically speaking.

And what you do has no bearing on them. You're all essentially the same.

We all agree on the spiritual verities because they are the same in all the major religions. What we differ on is the primary message of the Prophet Founder and we also have different social teachings and laws.

And none of your specific beliefs in either of those parts can be justified outside of your own head.

We're still at the same starting point; Maybe a god or gods exist, maybe the don't. Maybe a god exists in the form one specific religion defines them, maybe a god exists that is entirely different to how all religions define them. We don't know and it doesn't matter how much internal validation and self-justification you pile on, you're still in exactly the same position of ignorance as the rest of us.

 

[Trailblazer]

my quote: The reason God is wrathful is because some people warrant God's wrath. God does not need to make excuses for His wrath.
God is infallible so God knows when His wrath is warranted.

your Answer: Where are your answers that are supposed to add up?? If your god is wrathful, he needs to come up with those excuses because there is no need for god to be wrathful.

Who are you, a created being, to say what the Creator of the Universe needs? An infallible God does not need to make excuses to fallible humans.

People have wrath when they can not control the actions of another. Is your god having a control problem? Oh, I get it. You expect me or anybody to believe or accept the blank check of whatever god wants never question it because he is God. Clearly, you are not one who seeks the Real Truth when questions can be dismissed in such a way.

You are projecting onto God what humans do. God is not a human. God’s wrath is not used to control anyone, because God is already in complete control of everyone, would you but know it. God’s wrath is called for when it is warranted by human behavior.

I do not expect you or anybody to believe or accept the blank check of whatever God wants and never question it because He is God. You can go head to head with God if you want to but you will ever win because God is Omnipotent and you aren’t.

I seek the Real Truth about God and it was revealed by Baha’u’llah. I do not just make up whatever is congruent with what I want God to be. I might question why God does what God does but I do not question God, as if I know more than God.

my quote: You are clearly blind you your beliefs, they just are not religious beliefs, they are made up beliefs.
You cannot know God without a holy book that comes from Prophet.

your Answer: On a true journey to Discover the Real Truth, one must be open to all possibilities even those possibilities one might not agree with.

That’s true, so you would need to be open to the possibility that God revealed Himself and His Will through holy books.

Real Truth will always add up. Made up beliefs will not add up. To find an example of made up beliefs one only needs to look in those holy books. They think God has wrath. Do you really think God didn't know how a person would turn out after creating them? Your belief flaws are everywhere. Teaching wrath is teaching Hate. Is there really any need for God to Hate?? Of course not!

That is true, Real Truth will always add up. To find an example of Real Truth one only needs to look in the holy books.

God does not teach humans to hate or have wrath, but it is God’s prerogative to have wrath because God is All-Knowing and All-Wise, so God knows when wrath is warranted. God does not hate anyone. God loves everyone.

God did know how humans would turn out but God is not responsible for how they turned out because God gave humans free will to make their own choices.

In reality, one will never really Understand God with holy books simply because they do not Understand God.

And you do? How do you think you can Understand God? Everything you say about God is just a projection of your own ego onto God.

my quote: We need a middleman because we could never understand God any other way.

your Answer: You might just be surprised. Neither God nor us need middlemen. It's the middlemen that need the people to believe. Without belief, religions have nothing. Why? They have nothing else.

We need a middleman because God does not communicate directly to humans. The middlemen have no need for anyone to believe in them, they do what they do solely for the sake of God. The religions do not need anyone to believe in them. They stand as the Truth from God, regardless of how many followers they have.

my quote: But you do not see me as I am, just the way you think I am.

your answer: Just as one can Discover God through God's actions, one can Discover you through your actions. I see who you are and the box you have placed yourself in?

You do not even know my actions, you only know a few things I have posted on this forum, yet you think you know me. You see what you see based upon your own ego, and that is not who I am.

My advice? Accept less and Question more. Anyone who seeks the Real Truth should have a million questions. Cause God says so or can will never be an acceptable answer to settle on.
That's the Clear Picture I am seeing.

You can question anything you want to but you will not always get the right answer, if it comes from your ego.

Because God says so is good enough for me because God is All-Knowing and All-Wise and I am not.

 

[Trailblazer]

So you agree that "in your mind" you believe it true that it is impossible for you to be wrong about Baha'ullah?

I never said that it is impossible for me to be wrong. Why are you making a straw man?

And yet you asserted that you believed it was impossible for you to be wrong about Baha'ullah. Do you now retract that statement?

I never said that it is impossible for me to be wrong. Why are you making a straw man?

Lots of people demonstrate delusions to themselves all the time. The question is what steps you have taken to ensure what you believe is accurate.

I have done the necessary research.

Just because lots of people have delusions does not mean some people do not have the Truth. That is basic logic.

Neither is true. Just because you can't prove something doesn't mean it isn't true, and you cannot produce evidence that Jim Jones was a false prophet.

I cannot prove it but I can know it based upon the evidence, just as I cannot prove Baha’u’llah was a true Prophet yet I can know it, based upon the evidence.

So how have people demonstrated them to be true?

By doing their own independent investigation of truth.

“The first principle Baha’u’llah urged was the independent investigation of truth. “Each individual,” He said, “is following the faith of his ancestors who themselves are lost in the maze of tradition. Reality is steeped in dogmas and doctrines. If each investigate for himself, he will find that Reality is one; does not admit of multiplicity; is not divisible. All will find the same foundation and all will be at peace.” – Abdu’l-Baha, Star of the West, Volume 3, p. 5.

“Bahá’u’lláh asked no one to accept His statements and His tokens blindly. On the contrary, He put in the very forefront of His teachings emphatic warnings against blind acceptance of authority, and urged all to open their eyes and ears, and use their own judgement, independently and fearlessly, in order to ascertain the truth. He enjoined the fullest investigation and never concealed Himself, offering, as the supreme proofs of His Prophethood, His words and works and their effects in transforming the lives and characters of men.”Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 8

“What does it mean to investigate reality? It means that man must forget all hearsay and examine truth himself, for he does not know whether statements he hears are in accordance with reality or not. Wherever he finds truth or reality, he must hold to it, forsaking, discarding all else; for outside of reality there is naught but superstition and imagination.” – Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 62.​

Please explain how, then. Provide a simple way to demonstrate that Baha'ullah or Jim Jones were false prophets.

Find verifiable facts about them that expose them as liars and/or con-men.

Stating that prophecies were fulfilled is a claim. Stating that you know is his character is a claim. Stating that he made predictions that have come true is a claim.

No, it is not a claim, it is a belief that an be researched and verified.

How about doing your own? So far, you've given no indication you've done anything other than blindly accept what you have read. If you did some research to verify what you read, what was that research?

You have no idea what I have done. You are very arrogant to think you do. Why does it matter to you anyway? Why not look at yourself instead of me?

FYI, I know a Baha’i who became a Baha’i after reading one page of the Writings of Baha’u’llah. That was well over 50 years ago. You have no way of knowing how other people recognize the Truth from God. God guides whomsoever He chooses to guide. Try refuting that.

You already said it was impossible for you to be wrong about Baha'ullah. Which is it?

I never said that it is impossible for me to be wrong. Why are you making a straw man?

I don't know, which is why I've repeatedly asked you how you know and all you can do is tell me "I read stuff". You've given no indication that you have done anything other than blindly accept some stuff you read, and you avoid the question of how you verified them every time.

There is no indication that I blindly accepted what I read. That is just your ego talking, since you have no way to know what I have done.

I verify what is verifiable but I do not need to verify everything. I know what I believe is true, but HOW I know is not something you will ever understand. But if you can refute it go on ahead. It is not impossible, just did up some dirt on Baha’u’llah.

That's not a good sign.
Neither is claiming that it's impossible for you to be wrong about something.
Neither is stating that people should "prove you wrong" before you critically evaluate or question your own beliefs.

All straw men.

I never claimed I cannot be wrong, I said I do not believe I am wrong. Those are different statements.

I have already critically evaluated and questioned my own beliefs, for 49 years. You assume I haven’t only because of your own ego.

I said if you want to prove me wrong, now that I have critically evaluated and questioned my own beliefs, you will have to dig up some dirt on Baha’u’llah.

If you misrepresent me again or contradict what I have clearly said you won’t hear from me again. IF you are so arrogant you are not even aware that is what you have been doing, that is not my problem. I did not come here to play psychologist.

IF you are knowingly playing games, I don’t have time for that. You will have to find somebody else to play with.

 

[Trailblazer]

That is literal circular reasoning. You could also say the reason to disbelieve in God is because God doesn't exist and be just as meaningful. The simple fact remains that your specific faith is no more (or less) valid than any other specific faith and so there is no rational reason to choose any one over all of the others.

Yes, it would also be logical to say that if God doesn't exist God doesn’t exist and that is the reason not to believe in God.

There is nothing circular about it. It is just a statement of fact. If God exists that is the reality and if God does not exist that is the reality. Reality is what is.

The simple fact remains that you cannot know if my faith is more valid than other faiths unless you investigate it and determine that for yourself.

There is no "might be" is any of your beliefs, you are very definitive in your God and your faith being the one true one. The list of presumptions apply to you just as they apply to dedicated followers of all the other revealed religions.

They are not presumptions, they are beliefs based upon evidence. Whichever religion has the best evidence to support it is the religion a rational person would choose.

And what you do has no bearing on them. You're all essentially the same.

That’s true. What I do has no bearing on other religions.

It is false to say that all religions are the same because they are different in some ways even though they are the same in other ways.

And none of your specific beliefs in either of those parts can be justified outside of your own head.

My beliefs are justified by the evidence, which is outside of my own head.

We're still at the same starting point; Maybe a god or gods exist, maybe the don't. Maybe a god exists in the form one specific religion defines them, maybe a god exists that is entirely different to how all religions define them. We don't know and it doesn't matter how much internal validation and self-justification you pile on, you're still in exactly the same position of ignorance as the rest of us.

No I am not in ignorance because I am not an atheist. I know God exists and I know my religion is the Truth from God. I cannot prove either one of those to you because my knowing came from my own research and conclusions thus drawn.

 

[Bird123]

Who are you, a created being, to say what the Creator of the Universe needs? An infallible God does not need to make excuses to fallible humans.

You are projecting onto God what humans do. God is not a human. God’s wrath is not used to control anyone, because God is already in complete control of everyone, would you but know it. God’s wrath is called for when it is warranted by human behavior.

I do not expect you or anybody to believe or accept the blank check of whatever God wants and never question it because He is God. You can go head to head with God if you want to but you will ever win because God is Omnipotent and you aren’t.

I seek the Real Truth about God and it was revealed by Baha’u’llah. I do not just make up whatever is congruent with what I want God to be. I might question why God does what God does but I do not question God, as if I know more than God.

That’s true, so you would need to be open to the possibility that God revealed Himself and His Will through holy books.

That is true, Real Truth will always add up. To find an example of Real Truth one only needs to look in the holy books.

God does not teach humans to hate or have wrath, but it is God’s prerogative to have wrath because God is All-Knowing and All-Wise, so God knows when wrath is warranted. God does not hate anyone. God loves everyone.

God did know how humans would turn out but God is not responsible for how they turned out because God gave humans free will to make their own choices.

And you do? How do you think you can Understand God? Everything you say about God is just a projection of your own ego onto God.

We need a middleman because God does not communicate directly to humans. The middlemen have no need for anyone to believe in them, they do what they do solely for the sake of God. The religions do not need anyone to believe in them. They stand as the Truth from God, regardless of how many followers they have.


You do not even know my actions, you only know a few things I have posted on this forum, yet you think you know me. You see what you see based upon your own ego, and that is not who I am.

You can question anything you want to but you will not always get the right answer, if it comes from your ego.

Because God says so is good enough for me because God is All-Knowing and All-Wise and I am not.

How little you really Understand God. There are other lessons you must learn first. These lessons deal with the petty things mankind holds so dear. Mankind has incorporated them into their religions simply because that is who they are.

You are in your box of beliefs because you value these petty things as well. When you have lived all sides, your intelligence will see these things for what they really are.

You make so many assumptions in order to justify staying in that box of beliefs you love so well. There will come a time when knowing the Real Truth will become more important to you.

I have given you a glimpse of what God is really like. I have pointed you in the direction by which you can Discover the Real Truth for yourself. Lucky you, for I had to discover the starting point without help.

Your journey has never depended on me. Clearly, there is much for you to learn before you are ready.

Our actions return to us all, not as punishment, but to teach us what our actions really mean. This happens regardless of any beliefs we choose to value above reality.

Be very careful teaching such things like wrath or condemning. You might not realize this but hate in any form never feels good returning. On the other hand, for some, it is necessary to Understand.

You have my best.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I never said that it is impossible for me to be wrong. Why are you making a straw man?

It's not a strawman. Why can you not accept what you wrote?

You wrote, clear as day, in post 163:
"In my mind, it is impossible that what I believe about Baha’u’llah is not true, because there is too much evidence that shows that He was who He claimed to be."

By asserting that it is "impossible" for what you believe to not be true, you are asserting that it is impossible for you to be wrong.

Instead of lying and constantly twisting your own words, why not just retract them and admit you were exaggerating? It happens. If you had done that several pages ago I would have dropped this entire issue long ago, but that fact that you keep denying that you said it, denying that it means what it clearly means, lying about the wording and accusing me of "making it up" is just making you look worse. Just admit that it's something you shouldn't have written and isn't an accurate reflection of what you actually believe about your position.

Unless it actually is, in which case why are you objecting to me honestly presenting your own position?

I have done the necessary research.

Great. What research have you done?

Just because lots of people have delusions does not mean some people do not have the Truth. That is basic logic.

Of course. The question is what have you done to demonstrate that you have the truth and/or that they (that is, others who may hold contradictory beliefs to yours) don't?

I cannot prove it but I can know it based upon the evidence, just as I cannot prove Baha’u’llah was a true Prophet yet I can know it, based upon the evidence.

Great. Then what is this evidence and how have you verified it?

By doing their own independent investigation of truth.

By doing what, in your case?

Find verifiable facts about them that expose them as liars and/or con-men.

Okay then. Produce a variable fact that exposes my cousin, the genie, as a liar or con man.

No, it is not a claim, it is a belief that an be researched and verified.

It's both.

You have no idea what I have done. You are very arrogant to think you do. Why does it matter to you anyway? Why not look at yourself instead of me?

Because I'm investigating what YOU believe. Why are you being so defensive over being asked what the justification for your belief is?

FYI, I know a Baha’i who became a Baha’i after reading one page of the Writings of Baha’u’llah. That was well over 50 years ago. You have no way of knowing how other people recognize the Truth from God. God guides whomsoever He chooses to guide. Try refuting that.

Okay then. Your friend was delusional and had no reason for accepting what they did because they can't demonstrate the truth of any of it even at a basic level.

Also, accepting the truth of something after reading just one page does not exactly demonstrate the actual truth of it. In fact, quite the opposite. It demonstrates the gullibility of the reader. Nobody should conclude an entire school of thought as true after reading just ONE page of it, and if they do it's a sign that the individual is not remotely rational.

I never said that it is impossible for me to be wrong. Why are you making a straw man?

Please stop lying. I've quoted you above.

There is no indication that I blindly accepted what I read. That is just your ego talking, since you have no way to know what I have done.

If that's the case, then present how you have verified that what you have read is true.

I verify what is verifiable but I do not need to verify everything. I know what I believe is true, but HOW I know is not something you will ever understand. But if you can refute it go on ahead. It is not impossible, just did up some dirt on Baha’u’llah.

I'm tired of explaining to you why this logic is fallacious.

Again, refute that my cousin is a genie. For something you seem to suggest is so easy, you have presented not a single successful way of doing so. Until you do so, I am free to doubtlessly accept my cousin is a genie.

All straw men.

Lie. Your own words.

I never claimed I cannot be wrong, I said I do not believe I am wrong. Those are different statements.

You're lying again. What you said was that you believe it was impossible for what you believe to be wrong. Why do you constantly have to change your own words to defend them? Just retract the statement, already.

I have already critically evaluated and questioned my own beliefs, for 49 years. You assume I haven’t only because of your own ego.

No, I assume you haven't because I've asked you dozens of times now to present methods you used to critically evaluate your beliefs and you have presented absolutely nothing so far.

I said if you want to prove me wrong, now that I have critically evaluated and questioned my own beliefs, you will have to dig up some dirt on Baha’u’llah.

Prove my cousin is not a genie and we'll talk.

If you misrepresent me again or contradict what I have clearly said you won’t hear from me again. IF you are so arrogant you are not even aware that is what you have been doing, that is not my problem. I did not come here to play psychologist.

Apparently, you didn't come here for any reason other than to make claims and not support them. Can you actually answer any of my challenges or are you just going to attack my character and make offensive insinuations about my mental health (for which you should feel personally ashamed) just for asking you to explain why you believe what you believe?

IF you are knowingly playing games, I don’t have time for that. You will have to find somebody else to play with.

No games whatsoever. All I've done is engage in basic Socratic dialogue with you and you fell apart and stopped answering my questions by the third of fourth attempt. The fact that you have to go personal when somebody asks you to present the rationale behind your beliefs really just indicates the weakness of your conviction.

49 years and you still don't have any justification for your beliefs, and get offensive and personal when asked. That's pretty bad.

 

[HonestJoe]

Yes, it would also be logical to say that if God doesn't exist God doesn’t exist and that is the reason not to believe in God.

There is nothing circular about it. It is just a statement of fact.

The statement “that if God doesn't exist God doesn’t exist” is a fact in itself (albeit an fairly meaningless one on its own). The statement “that is the reason not to believe in God” is the circular reasoning because it’s based on nothing other than the self-referential statement. If that were valid, you could argue that belief in literally anything is valid on the basis that “If X is true, X is true”.

The simple fact remains that you cannot know if my faith is more valid than other faiths unless you investigate it and determine that for yourself.

Yes, and neither can you know all those other faiths (including the thousands neither of us have ever even heard of). My very point is that believing any faith over and above any other is irrational. Faith is starting from the conclusion and finding the evidence to fit it.

They are not presumptions, they are beliefs based upon evidence.

Only if you present the actual evidence. You’ve failed to do that. Note that the words of a long-dead prophet are not primary evidence of anything.

Whichever religion has the best evidence to support it is the religion a rational person would choose.

Belief in the existence of a particular god and following all the practices of a particular religion are two entirely separate things. Even if you convinced me a god exists, I wouldn’t necessarily choose to practice your or any other religion.

It is false to say that all religions are the same because they are different in some ways even though they are the same in other ways.

I meant the same on the basis of their claims of having definitive facts, their reality of only having personal faith and their mirrored attitudes towards each other. I could have exactly the same discussion with believers in gods to your own. I could be right in both cases but you both can’t be right despite making exactly the same arguments because you reach entirely different and contradictory conclusions from them.

No I am not in ignorance because I am not an atheist. I know God exists and I know my religion is the Truth from God. I cannot prove either one of those to you because my knowing came from my own research and conclusions thus drawn.

You don’t know, you believe. Nothing wrong with that in itself and we all do it to one way or another. Acknowledging that we do is vital in my opinion though, because what is important is what we actually do in response to our beliefs. The worst atrocities in history were committed by people who were certain that what they believed was unconditionally and unquestionably true.

 

[Trailblazer]

49 years and you still don't have any justification for your beliefs, and get offensive and personal when asked. That's pretty bad.

I have absolute justification for my beliefs, I just do not justify them the way you would.
I will decide whether I want to answer the rest of your post later, I have to go to work now.

Maybe it really bothers you that I am so firm in my faith, unflinching?
Notice I said "maybe" as I do not speak for other people the way you speak for me, as if you know everything about me.

I have been dealing with atheists like you 24/7 for 7 years so it is a walk in the park for me.
Not all atheists are so arrogant though, many have humility.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I have absolute justification for my beliefs, I just do not justify them the way you would.

Once again, you're claiming "absolute justification" doesn't exactly indicate that you are open-minded to the possibility of being wrong, or remotely skeptical of your beliefs.

Of course, you could be absolutely right, but I would have absolutely no way of knowing or investigating that, and a truth that cannot be demonstrated beyond an individual experience or perception is functionally indistinguishable from a delusion.

I will decide whether I want to answer the rest of your post later, I have to go to work now.

Maybe it really bothers you that I am so firm in my faith, unflinching?

It doesn't bother me so much as it intrigues me, because I believe that if somebody is extremely firm in their belief then they must have good reasons for why they believe it. I am simply interested in what these reasons are, and become frustrated when people don't or can't provide them, or they do provide them and I find that they are not even remotely firm.

Notice I said "maybe" as I do not speak for other people the way you speak for me, as if you know everything about me.

I believe a huge part of our disagreement centers around the fact that I DON'T know everything about you, because you won't give me a straightforward answer to most of my questions. The whole point is that I want to know WHY you believe what you believe, and you've provided little to nothing beyond "I read it and believed it".

I have been dealing with atheists like you 24/7 for 7 years so it is a walk in the park for me.

What makes you think I'm an atheist?

Not all atheists are so arrogant though, many have humility.

And now you're getting personal again. On top of the insinuations about my mental health earlier (a remark for which I am awaiting an apology, because I think it's disgraceful), you aren't coming off as a great exemplar of the belief system you claim to practice:

"Ye are the fruits of one tree, and the leaves of one branch. Deal ye one with another with the utmost love and harmony, with friendliness and fellowship."
Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 287-289​

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I have been dealing with atheists like you 24/7 for 7 years so it is a walk in the park for me.

That's a long time to go without sleep!

 

[Trailblazer]

How little you really Understand God. There are other lessons you must learn first. These lessons deal with the petty things mankind holds so dear. Mankind has incorporated them into their religions simply because that is who they are.

You are in your box of beliefs because you value these petty things as well. When you have lived all sides, your intelligence will see these things for what they really are.

You make so many assumptions in order to justify staying in that box of beliefs you love so well. There will come a time when knowing the Real Truth will become more important to you.

I have given you a glimpse of what God is really like. I have pointed you in the direction by which you can Discover the Real Truth for yourself. Lucky you, for I had to discover the starting point without help.

Your journey has never depended on me. Clearly, there is much for you to learn before you are ready.

Our actions return to us all, not as punishment, but to teach us what our actions really mean. This happens regardless of any beliefs we choose to value above reality.

Be very careful teaching such things like wrath or condemning. You might not realize this but hate in any form never feels good returning. On the other hand, for some, it is necessary to Understand.

You have my best.

I do not believe that anyone can Discover God without a Messenger of God because God is otherwise unknowable. We can see God reflected in all of Creation but that does not tell us about God’s Attributes or God’s Will for us. Messengers are the only way humans can know anything about God or God’s Will for us.

There is no point trying to convince me otherwise because my position is not going to change.

Given everyone has free will, you are free to believe what you want to and I am free to believe what I want to. I have no need to convince you of what I believe.

You have my best.

 

[Trailblazer]

The statement “that if God doesn't exist God doesn’t exist” is a fact in itself (albeit an fairly meaningless one on its own). The statement “that is the reason not to believe in God” is the circular reasoning because it’s based on nothing other than the self-referential statement. If that were valid, you could argue that belief in literally anything is valid on the basis that “If X is true, X is true”.

Sorry, but you kind of lost me. If God does not exist, isn’t that a good reason not to believe in God?

Yes, and neither can you know all those other faiths (including the thousands neither of us have ever even heard of). My very point is that believing any faith over and above any other is irrational. Faith is starting from the conclusion and finding the evidence to fit it.

Why is it irrational to believe one faith over all the others if one has determined that faith is the truth by doing adequate research? Why would a person need to compare that faith with all the others in order to know it is the truth? I did not need to compare my husband with other men before I married him in order to know what kind of person he was. I did not need to compare the three houses I have purchased with many other houses in order to know they were the houses I wanted to buy. Why would religion be any different? I still have the same religion, husband and houses after many, many years.

I did not start with a belief in God or my religion and then find evidence to fit it. I had no faith or belief in God or religion before I found the Baha’i Faith and I believed in my religion and thus in God because of the evidence I found to support my religion.

Only if you present the actual evidence. You’ve failed to do that. Note that the words of a long-dead prophet are not primary evidence of anything.

I never said a claim to Prophethood is evidence of the claim since that would be circular. The evidence is as follows:

The evidence that Baha’u’llah was who He claimed to be is His character; the history of His life; what He did during His mission on earth; the scriptures that He wrote; what others have written about Him; the Bible prophecies that He fulfilled and the prophecies of other religions that He fulfilled; the predictions He made that have come to pass; the religion that was established as the result of His Revelation, what His followers all over the world have done and are doing now.

Belief in the existence of a particular god and following all the practices of a particular religion are two entirely separate things. Even if you convinced me a god exists, I wouldn’t necessarily choose to practice your or any other religion.

Why not, because you might not “like” the practices?

I meant the same on the basis of their claims of having definitive facts, their reality of only having personal faith and their mirrored attitudes towards each other. I could have exactly the same discussion with believers in gods to your own. I could be right in both cases but you both can’t be right despite making exactly the same arguments because you reach entirely different and contradictory conclusions from them.

No, we could not both be right if the religions contradicted each other. Such is the case with orthodox Christianity and the Baha’i Faith, they cannot be reconciled, so one would have to choose one or the other or neither one.

You don’t know, you believe. Nothing wrong with that in itself and we all do it to one way or another. Acknowledging that we do is vital in my opinion though, because what is important is what we actually do in response to our beliefs. The worst atrocities in history were committed by people who were certain that what they believed was unconditionally and unquestionably true.

I do not know my religion is true as a fact because nobody can prove any religion is true as a fact. There is an atheist on my forum who I have been posting to for over five years and he says that if the evidence for Baha’u’llah would not hold up in a court of law it would be worthless. He just cannot seem to separate law from religion. The evidence for religion will never be like the evidence presented and required in a court of law.