Atheists: If God existed…

[night912]

Punishment for crimes is not teaching them to hurt others, it is teaching them not to hurt others. Punishment needs to fit the crime and it does not involve inflicting pain. What are we supposed to do, reward a murderer for killing someone? Get real.

Tell that to the soldiers who fought in wars through out history that were given rewards.

My religions teaches that all people are not equal in the sight of God because people can be good or evil. It has nothing to do with whether they are believers or non-believers. People are who they are according to their actions, and they have free will to choose, so they are fully responsible for their choices, unless they are mentally ill or mentally challenged, or a child under the age of reason.

Hatred, judgemental, discrimination, etc has been shown here. What gives your religion the right to take away someone else's freedom and freewill simply because of being "mentally" challenge, ill, under the age of reason?

There are no threats of hell in my holy book, just explanations about how we make our own hell, by our own choices.

Those who believes that a threat is not a threat, will not see that it actually is a threat.

If everyone just did what they pleased, following their own ideas of right and wrong, some people would do good and some would do evil, because without religion there is no guidance at all. The fact that so many people no longer follow the teachings of their religions is why we see evil and chaos in the world today.

You do realize that this is actually showing evidence of how bad religious people are. A moral person knows what is moral and immoral. An amoral person doesn't know what's moral and immoral requiring for an outside source to tell them what is right or wrong. This is really bad for society and the future of humanity. That would make the religious person ignorant of right or wrong when they no longer have a religion. Keep in mind that this is your idea of religious people, not mine.

 

[Trailblazer]

Nobody “needs” to believe in a god, even if one exists. It’s more to the point that if you can’t prove god exists, all you have is blind faith.

I was not implying that anyone needs to believe in God. I said "If God exists and we cannot prove that there would be a need for belief and faith." The reason there would be a need for belief and faith, for anyone who wants to believe in God, is because there is no proof.

If the basis for your religion is built on faith, the entire thing is based on faith by definition. If that foundation were removed, the entire thing would collapse.

The basis for my religion is evidence, but faith is also necessary to believe God spoke to Baha'u'llah because that cannot ever be proven.

Because you’re a human being. People have been doing the same kind of thing you’re doing throughout recorded history. I see no reason to treat you as some special case with a unique revelation.

And i would never expect you to treat my religion as special unless you determined it was special by investigating it.

So yes, exactly the same as you.

No, they do not have exactly what I have, unless they have the same evidence I have.

Christianity literally says Jesus was the fulfilment of Old Testament prophecy. The Abrahamic faiths (including Baha’i) all developed from the same sources and so have a massive amount in common.

That is true and Christianity was right about that. Jesus did fulfill Old Testament prophecy, but He did not fulfill all the OT prophecies.
Yes, we do have a lot in common because the spiritual verities are the same in all the great religions, since they are eternal.

Why worship anything? Worship effectively establishes a theocratic dictatorship.

It is not theocratic when the one you worship is God, not a man. I am not so great at worship, but I believe it is right in principle.

How can you know God is unknowable? The only reason the concept can’t be proven is that it has been specifically defined so that it can’t be proven. Or, of course, disproven.

The Essence (intrinsic nature) of God is unknowable, but God's Attributes and God's Will are knowable through the Messengers of God. I believe that because Baha'u'llah wrote that.

 

[night912]

I know that nobody knows the Essence of God because Baha'u'llah wrote that.

He did not need to know the Essence of God in order to write that, all he needed was a message from God saying nobody knows My Essence... Here is one such passage:

“The conceptions of the devoutest of mystics, the attainments of the most accomplished amongst men, the highest praise which human tongue or pen can render are all the product of man’s finite mind and are conditioned by its limitations. Ten thousand Prophets, each a Moses, are thunderstruck upon the Sinai of their search at His forbidding voice, “Thou shalt never behold Me!”; whilst a myriad Messengers, each as great as Jesus, stand dismayed upon their heavenly thrones by the interdiction, “Mine Essence thou shalt never apprehend!”From time immemorial He hath been veiled in the ineffable sanctity of His exalted Self, and will everlastingly continue to be wrapt in the impenetrable mystery of His unknowable Essence. Every attempt to attain to an understanding of His inaccessible Reality hath ended in complete bewilderment, and every effort to approach His exalted Self and envisage His Essence hath resulted in hopelessness and failure.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 62-63

Posting your religious scripture without critically thinking about it isn't helping you. Because you just gave evidence as to why your "prophets" and their religion is not correct. Since they are ignorant of god's essence, they lack to understand what god really meant.

 

[night912]

The Essence (intrinsic nature) of God is unknowable, but God's Attributes and God's Will are knowable through the Messengers of God. I believe that because Baha'u'llah wrote that.

Knowing how to read or being able to listen words is not the same as understanding what was written or being said.

 

[Trailblazer]

Tell that to the soldiers who fought in wars through out history that were given rewards.

I was referring to criminals, not soldiers.

Hatred, judgemental, discrimination, etc has been shown here. What gives your religion the right to take away someone else's freedom and freewill simply because of being "mentally" challenge, ill, under the age of reason?

That is not what I meant. I meant that people are not responsible for their actions if they are mentally challenged, or a child under the age of reason, because their free will is very limited; but otherwise people are responsible for their free will choices.

Those who believes that a threat is not a threat, will not see that it actually is a threat.

It is either a threat or not.

You do realize that this is actually showing evidence of how bad religious people are. A moral person knows what is moral and immoral. An amoral person doesn't know what's moral and immoral requiring for an outside source to tell them what is right or wrong. This is really bad for society and the future of humanity. That would make the religious person ignorant of right or wrong when they no longer have a religion. Keep in mind that this is your idea of religious people, not mine.

People can be moral without a religion, but most people need a religion to be moral since a conscience is not something all people possess. If a religious person was moral because of the religion they would not become amoral if it was taken away since they learned what they learned.

 

[Trailblazer]

Posting your religious scripture without critically thinking about it isn't helping you. Because you just gave evidence as to why your "prophets" and their religion is not correct. Since they are ignorant of god's essence, they lack to understand what god really meant.

I just explained that the Messengers of God do not need to know God's Essence in order to receive messages from God and understand what God meant.

 

[Trailblazer]

Knowing how to read or being able to listen words is not the same as understanding what was written or being said.

That is true, but the Messengers of God do understand God because they have a universal divine mind.
That is what makes them different from ordinary human beings, who could never understand God.

 

[frbnsn]

An atheist on my forum said: “if God existed, then proof of his existence would be possible. The proof isn't there, and the best explanation for that lack of proof would be that neither is the god there.”

If God existed, would God provide proof of His existence? If you answer yes, please explain why you think that God would provide proof of His existence.

Is it possible that God exists and has chosen not to provide proof of His existence? If you think it possible that God exists and has chosen not to provide proof of His existence, why do you think God would choose not to provide proof of His existence?

I am not talking about evidence, I am talking about absolute proof, in which case God would be established as a fact, like a scientific fact everyone would agree upon.

Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid: https://www.google.com/search

Proof: evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement: https://www.google.com/search

Dear Trailblazer,
No need to spend much effort!
The atom, therefore matter, and the fact that matter must obey the universal laws are evident proofs of God's existence.
If there is a law, it must be a lawmaker.

 

[HonestJoe]

I was not implying that anyone needs to believe in God. I said "If God exists and we cannot prove that there would be a need for belief and faith." The reason there would be a need for belief and faith, for anyone who wants to believe in God, is because there is no proof.

”Wants to believe” makes no sense. Belief isn’t a choice, it’s a subconscious outcome. A person might want answers to the big questions of life but they can’t simply decide what they’re going to believe those answers are (however much they might lie to themselves about it).

The basis for my religion is evidence, but faith is also necessary to believe God spoke to Baha'u'llah because that cannot ever be proven.

No, the basis is that communication from God. All the specifics and details are built upon that. Your faith is the lone keystone holding the entire thing up.

And i would never expect you to treat my religion as special unless you determined it was special by investigating it.

But you keep suggesting that you and your faith has something extra that makes it more viable than any other. I’m saying you’re all pretty much the same.

No, they do not have exactly what I have, unless they have the same evidence I have.

They have the same belief that they have similar evidence for their faith. I have had pretty much exactly this discussion with believers in various different faiths. You all largely respect each other but you all claim that your faith alone has that special X-factor to raise it above the others.

Yes, we do have a lot in common because the spiritual verities are the same in all the great religions, since they are eternal.

Or they’re the same because they’re entirely temporal and human?

The Essence (intrinsic nature) of God is unknowable, but God's Attributes and God's Will are knowable through the Messengers of God. I believe that because Baha'u'llah wrote that.

Those are really word games creating false divisions within the concept of your God but if the “essence” is unknowable then nobody (not even Baha'u'llah) can know the “attributes” and “will” are true and accurate representations of that “essence”. The concept of the “unknowable god” (even in part) is just an empty crutch because “unknowable” on its own is such a frightening concept.

 

[Bird123]

I understand everything you said; I just do not agree with you.

My religion does not do that; my religion seeks justice and sometimes that requires punishment.
My religion seeks to educate in order to prevent the problems in the first place. It is not an either/or.

I was not referring to children, I was referring to adults who are FULLY responsible for their actions.
I was not talking about payback, i was talking about justice. Revenge is not necessary for justice but punishment often is.

Punishment for crimes is not teaching them to hurt others, it is teaching them not to hurt others. Punishment needs to fit the crime and it does not involve inflicting pain. What are we supposed to do, reward a murderer for killing someone? Get real.

My religions teaches that all people are not equal in the sight of God because people can be good or evil. It has nothing to do with whether they are believers or non-believers. People are who they are according to their actions, and they have free will to choose, so they are fully responsible for their choices, unless they are mentally ill or mentally challenged, or a child under the age of reason.

There are no threats of hell in my holy book, just explanations about how we make our own hell, by our own choices.

No holy book teaches us to hate or do evil, they teach us to love and do good.
I have no idea what you mean by petty things. What is petty?.

What petty things? Messengers do not teach petty things.

If everyone just did what they pleased, following their own ideas of right and wrong, some people would do good and some would do evil, because without religion there is no guidance at all. The fact that so many people no longer follow the teachings of their religions is why we see evil and chaos in the world today.

your quote:I understand everything you said; I just do not agree with you.
My answer. It has nothing to do with whether you agree

your quote:I was not referring to children, I was referring to adults who are FULLY responsible for their actions.
My Answer: There is no difference between adults and children. We are all children of God making our choices freely.

your quote:Revenge is not necessary for justice but punishment often is.
My Answer: Why is punishment necessary for justice. It's just payback.

your quoteunishment for crimes is not teaching them to hurt others, it is teaching them not to hurt others.
My Answer: How does punishment teach them not to hurt others? Are you attempting to alter one's action by inflicting pain?

your quoteunishment needs to fit the crime and it does not involve inflicting pain.
My Answer:Who decides what punishment fits the crime? Are you not telling me punishment does not hurt? Hmmm? OK, describe punishment. Electric chair?

your quote:
What are we supposed to do, reward a murderer for killing someone? Get real.
My Answer: The answer is easy but it takes work. Since society and religion prefer to judge, condemn, and punish above all else, they do little. The answer is to Solve the Problem. Problems never go away until they are solved. Often they get worse to point the direction one needs to go.

your quote:My religions teaches that all people are not equal in the sight of God because people can be good or evil.
My Answeron't you love your children equally regardless of whether they are good or not? What is wrong with your god? This comes up lacking in my view.

your quoteeople are who they are according to their actions, and they have free will to choose, so they are fully responsible for their choices
My Answer: Ah yes, one of those petty things you hold so dear. BLAME! Now that you have been taught to blame, you can proceed with what else your religion has taught you. Judge, Condemn, Punish and Hate.

your quote:There are no threats of hell in my holy book, just explanations about how we make our own hell, by our own choices.
My Answererhaps you need to explain this one.

your quote:No holy book teaches us to hate or do evil, they teach us to love and do good.
My Answer: When your religion creates a we and they, your religion is teaching you to hate. Want proof? If you see this world as a mess full of evil people your religion has corrupted your thinking toward hate. Look around you. How is the world doing? Thinking hate generates hate. It doesn't matter whether you recognize this or not. You pass it to the world. Ask that Atheist friend of yours if religion ever serves up hate.

your quote:What petty things? Messengers do not teach petty things.
My Answer:Ruling, Controlling, Manipulating,Coercing, Intimidating,Blaming,Judging,Condemning,Punishing,and Teaching people to Hate, Teaching people to be Dependent. Yes, it goes on and on. Sure, religion does teach some on Love. Love is good.

Since all holy books are written by mankind, they reflect mankind and all those petty things mankind holds so dear. I know you want to believe so hard in those messengers, however their writings have more of them than God in those holy books.

Until you Understand,which up until now, you have no clue,you will not move forward toward God. On the other hand, worry not. You are living your lessons as we speak. All God's children are the same. Yes, even your labeled evil ones. SOLVE THE PROBLEM! Given enough time and living those lessons, everyone is going to make it.

your quote:If everyone just did what they pleased, following their own ideas of right and wrong, some people would do good and some would do evil, because without religion there is no guidance at all.
My Answer:It isn't your religion or any religion that is providing guidance. God and I both know that the best way to learn is by Living those lessons through our own free choices. When one Understands all sides, Intelligence will make the best choices.

Since everyone in time will make the best choices, there is no need to define good verses evil. There really is no need to Hate.

your quote:The fact that so many people no longer follow the teachings of their religions is why we see evil and chaos in the world today.
My Answer: Do you see how religion has corrupted your view and has taught you to Hate?

The world is not an evil chaotic mess. This world is a MASTERPIECE!!! In fact, I see no flaws. If I were to create a world, I would copy this one.

In a multilevel classroom, you will see others learning lessons you have already learned. When one has learned, some choices are no longer viable options because we know they are not intelligent choices. They aren't the best choices.

There is no need to condemn or hate others when you see them making bad choices. It is just a reminder of what the best choices really are. Instead, help solve the problem. Point them in the right direction. Can you see me pointing????

 

[night912]

That is true, but the Messengers of God do understand God because they have a universal divine mind.
That is what makes them different from ordinary human beings, who could never understand God.

And how would an ordinary human like yourself know that that is true?

 

[night912]

I was referring to criminals, not soldiers.

Nice try at moving the goal post, but murder is murder.

That is not what I meant. I meant that people are not responsible for their actions if they are mentally challenged, or a child under the age of reason, because their free will is very limited; but otherwise people are responsible for their free will choices.

It is either a threat or not.

Compare those two comments. Yep, hatred is hatred then. Which you have shown that you have.

People can be moral without a religion, but most people need a religion to be moral since a conscience is not something all people possess. If a religious person was moral because of the religion they would not become amoral if it was taken away since they learned what they learned.

You just contradicted yourself again.

 

[night912]

I never said that it is impossible for me to be wrong.

I never claimed I cannot be wrong, I said I do not believe I am wrong. Those are different statements.

So, you are contradicting yourself again, either you believe that it's impossible that you are wrong or believe that it's possible.

Another thing, being closed minded is about belief. And since repeatly admit to believe that it's impossible that you are wrong does indicate that you are closed minded.
[/QUOTE]

 

[Trailblazer]

”Wants to believe” makes no sense. Belief isn’t a choice, it’s a subconscious outcome. A person might want answers to the big questions of life but they can’t simply decide what they’re going to believe those answers are (however much they might lie to themselves about it).

I meant that anyone who wants to try to believe in God would need belief and faith since there is no proof.
I did not mean that anyone can just believe because they want to.

No, the basis is that communication from God. All the specifics and details are built upon that. Your faith is the lone keystone holding the entire thing up.

That is true, my religion is predicated upon the belief that God communicates to humans via Messengers.
But faith is not the only thing holding it up, because there is also evidence that backs up the belief.
That evidence is everything that surrounds the Revelation of Baha'u'llah, much of which is verifiable.

But you keep suggesting that you and your faith has something extra that makes it more viable than any other. I’m saying you’re all pretty much the same.

How do you know that, and wht is the same about them?

They have the same belief that they have similar evidence for their faith. I have had pretty much exactly this discussion with believers in various different faiths. You all largely respect each other but you all claim that your faith alone has that special X-factor to raise it above the others.

No, they do not have the same evidence because only the Baha'i Faith has original scriptures that were penned in the hand of the Prophet. All the scriptures of older religions were written by someone else who knew the Prophets, and some were written by people who did not even know the Prophets. Add to that that no religion even has any original manuscripts but the Baha'i Faith does. Also, the older religions do not have a history that can be verified by outside sources, like the Baha'i Faith history..

Or they’re the same because they’re entirely temporal and human?

The spiritual qualities are human qualities but they are not temporal given the soul lives on past death of the body.

Those are really word games creating false divisions within the concept of your God but if the “essence” is unknowable then nobody (not even Baha'u'llah) can know the “attributes” and “will” are true and accurate representations of that “essence”. The concept of the “unknowable god” (even in part) is just an empty crutch because “unknowable” on its own is such a frightening concept.

The Attributes and the Will of God have nothing to do with the Essence of God so they do not represent that Essence. The Essence of God is God's intrinsic nature and nobody can ever know that, not even the Messengers of God. The Attributes of God and the Will of God are knowable, because the Messengers of God reflect the Attributes of God and they reveal the Will of God that has been communicated to them by God.

 

[Trailblazer]

@ Bird123

my quote:I understand everything you said; I just do not agree with you.
your answer. It has nothing to do with whether you agree

Then why did you think I did not understand? How could you know?

my quote:I was not referring to children, I was referring to adults who are FULLY responsible for their actions.
your Answer: There is no difference between adults and children. We are all children of God making our choices freely.

No, in the context of having the ability to make choices and be responsible for their choices, children and adults are not the same, as any court of law knows.

my quote:Revenge is not necessary for justice but punishment often is.
your Answer: Why is punishment necessary for justice. It's just payback.

Revenge is payback, justice is giving someone what they deserve, punishment for wrong actions.

my quoteunishment for crimes is not teaching them to hurt others, it is teaching them not to hurt others.
your Answer: How does punishment teach them not to hurt others? Are you attempting to alter one's action by inflicting pain?

No, by teaching them they have to pay a price for their crimes. Nothing comes freely.

my quoteunishment needs to fit the crime and it does not involve inflicting pain.
your Answer:Who decides what punishment fits the crime? Are you not telling me punishment does not hurt? Hmmm? OK, describe punishment. Electric chair?

The justice system, judge and jury, decides what punishment suits the crime.
Of course it hurts, it should hurt, because they hurt someone else. That is justice.
Or do you think we should just give the mass murderer a lollipop and send him home?

my quote: What are we supposed to do, reward a murderer for killing someone? Get real.
your Answer: The answer is easy but it takes work. Since society and religion prefer to judge, condemn, and punish above all else, they do little. The answer is to Solve the Problem. Problems never go away until they are solved. Often they get worse to point the direction one needs to go.

How does the problem get solved?

my quote:My religions teaches that all people are not equal in the sight of God because people can be good or evil.
your Answeron't you love your children equally regardless of whether they are good or not? What is wrong with your god? This comes up lacking in my view.

God does love all people equally but that does not mean they are all equal in His sight, be they good or evil.

my quoteeople are who they are according to their actions, and they have free will to choose, so they are fully responsible for their choices
your Answer: Ah yes, one of those petty things you hold so dear. BLAME! Now that you have been taught to blame, you can proceed with what else your religion has taught you. Judge, Condemn, Punish and Hate.

Straw man. Holding people responsible and accountable is not Judge, Condemn, Punish and Hate.

my quote:There are no threats of hell in my holy book, just explanations about how we make our own hell, by our own choices.
your Answererhaps you need to explain this one.

Haven't you ever heard the expression, you made your own bed so now you have to lie in it?
This is all about free will choices people make. ALL actions have consequences.

my quote:No holy book teaches us to hate or do evil, they teach us to love and do good.
your Answer: When your religion creates a we and they, your religion is teaching you to hate. Want proof? If you see this world as a mess full of evil people your religion has corrupted your thinking toward hate. Look around you. How is the world doing? Thinking hate generates hate. It doesn't matter whether you recognize this or not. You pass it to the world. Ask that Atheist friend of yours if religion ever serves up hate.

Straw man. I have no hate, but I can recognize evil when I see it. Justice needs to be served.
There are good and evil people in the world but you want everyone to be the same regardless of their actions. It does not work that way. Get over it.

my quote:What petty things? Messengers do not teach petty things.
your Answer:Ruling, Controlling, Manipulating,Coercing, Intimidating,Blaming,Judging,Condemning,Punishing,and Teaching people to Hate, Teaching people to be Dependent. Yes, it goes on and on. Sure, religion does teach some on Love. Love is good.

My religion does not teach any of those things.
Love is good but justice is just as important as love.

Since all holy books are written by mankind, they reflect mankind and all those petty things mankind holds so dear. I know you want to believe so hard in those messengers, however their writings have more of them than God in those holy books.

Since all holy books are revealed by prophets of God, they reflect what God considers important.

Until you Understand,which up until now, you have no clue,you will not move forward toward God. On the other hand, worry not. You are living your lessons as we speak. All God's children are the same. Yes, even your labeled evil ones. SOLVE THE PROBLEM! Given enough time and living those lessons, everyone is going to make it.

I moved on towards God when I accepted Baha'u'llah as a Manifestation of God. Given enough time and living those teachings, everyone is going to make it.

my quote: If everyone just did what they pleased, following their own ideas of right and wrong, some people would do good and some would do evil, because without religion there is no guidance at all.
your Answer: It isn't your religion or any religion that is providing guidance. God and I both know that the best way to learn is by Living those lessons through our own free choices. When one Understands all sides, Intelligence will make the best choices.

Problem is, some people will never make the right choices because they have no morals or intelligence. That is why they need education and religion.

Since everyone in time will make the best choices, there is no need to define good verses evil. There really is no need to Hate.

You got any proof this is going to magically happen.
Why do you keep bringing up hate? I never said anything about hate. Justice is not hate.

my quote:The fact that so many people no longer follow the teachings of their religions is why we see evil and chaos in the world today.
your Answer: Do you see how religion has corrupted your view and has taught you to Hate?

That is a straw man and a red herring. I never said anything about hate.

The world is not an evil chaotic mess. This world is a MASTERPIECE!!! In fact, I see no flaws. If I were to create a world, I would copy this one.

Gimmie a break. You are wearing blinders because you do not want to see reality..

In a multilevel classroom, you will see others learning lessons you have already learned. When one has learned, some choices are no longer viable options because we know they are not intelligent choices. They aren't the best choices.

You are living in a fantasy world you have created. There is nothing more I can say.
Some people learn by living and others just keep making the same mistakes.

There is no need to condemn or hate others when you see them making bad choices. It is just a reminder of what the best choices really are. Instead, help solve the problem. Point them in the right direction. Can you see me pointing????

Straw man. Why can't you reply to what i am actually saying? I said nothing about hating or condemning anyone. I only said justice must be served. Yes, criminals need to be punished. That is not hate.

 

[Trailblazer]

And how would an ordinary human like yourself know that that is true?

Baha'u'llah wrote it.

 

[Trailblazer]

Nice try at moving the goal post, but murder is murder.

No, context and motives matter.

Compare those two comments. Yep, hatred is hatred then. Which you have shown that you have.

I have no hatred.

 

[Trailblazer]

So, you are contradicting yourself again, either you believe that it's impossible that you are wrong or believe that it's possible.

It is possible I am wrong but I do not believe I am wrong because it is possible that what I believe could be wrong.
Can you understand the English language?

Another thing, being closed minded is about belief. And since repeatly admit to believe that it's impossible that you are wrong does indicate that you are closed minded.

Straw man. I never said it is impossible that I could be wrong.
But even if I did believe it was impossible that I am wrong, that would not make me closed-minded.
That would just make me a believer who is firm in my beliefs.

I am not firmly unreceptive to new ideas or arguments just because I am firm in my beliefs.

Closed-minded
adjective. having a mind firmly unreceptive to new ideas or arguments: It's hard to argue with, much less convince, a closed-minded person.
Closed-minded | Definition of Closed-minded at Dictionary.com

 

[HonestJoe]

I meant that anyone who wants to try to believe in God would need belief and faith since there is no proof.

You can’t make yourself believe anything. You either do or you don’t. That’s why so many people shift around in their beliefs, even to the point of significantly shifting religions or holding and expressing beliefs that are controversial and even dangerous to them. Faith is irrational by definition.

That is true, my religion is predicated upon the belief that God communicates to humans via Messengers.

But faith is not the only thing holding it up, because there is also evidence that backs up the belief.

That evidence is everything that surrounds the Revelation of Baha'u'llah, much of which is verifiable.

But all of that is built on the assumption it comes from God. If that was not true, everything else you believe crumbles.

How do you know that, and wht is the same about them?

You say the same things, make the same arguments, reach very similar conclusions. You claim to have some kind of special element that raises your faith over and above all others but they all claim to have similar special elements too. From the outside, the similarities are glaring and the differences minimal. There is also the historical fact that Judaism, Christianity, Islam and Baha’I are all developed along the same path with many of the same underlying beliefs, principles and concepts. You only differ on the details (and often due to historical socio-political reasons rather than theological ones).

No, they do not have the same evidence because only the Baha'i Faith has original scriptures that were penned in the hand of the Prophet.

Well that’s the claim. You still only have the same faith assertion that the words are ultimately from or inspired by God. In that context, written, dictated or interpreted doesn’t really make a significant difference.

The spiritual qualities are human qualities but they are not temporal given the soul lives on past death of the body.

I’ll accept that the moment you show me a soul to demonstrate that it isn’t just some age-old abstract concept invented to explain and rationalise the (at the time) terrifying mysteries of life and death.

The Attributes and the Will of God have nothing to do with the Essence of God so they do not represent that Essence. The Essence of God is God's intrinsic nature and nobody can ever know that, not even the Messengers of God. The Attributes of God and the Will of God are knowable, because the Messengers of God reflect the Attributes of God and they reveal the Will of God that has been communicated to them by God.

You seem to be using existing words and applying entirely new definitions to them then. It ultimately boils down to you defining God as unknowable just so you don’t need to explain anything and will hand-wave away the inconsistency when you declare that you do know something about God with empty rhetoric.

I frankly find such blind faith depressing. You’re putting so much effort in to establishing something we can’t know by definition when that effort could be much better spent studying and learning about all the things we can.

 

[ArtieE]

I cannot tell you why I believe there is only One True God instead of many gods

Could you specify? You keep quoting the Bible and the Bible states that there are many gods... The Bible’s Many Gods | Gerald McDermott