Atheists: If God existed…

[Trailblazer]

Where did he teach this? Please provide quotes and links. And not something from Baha'i believers but independent sources.

Sorry, I do not have any. All I have is from Baha'i Writings. I believe what Abdu'l-Baha wrote because of the Covenant of Baha'u'llah. YMMV.

 

[Trailblazer]

Aren't you 99.9% atheist yourself? You don't believe in the existence of thousands of gods with one exception... right?

There are not thousands of gods, there is only one true God, according to my beliefs.
For what reason would there ever be thousands of gods? No scriptures ever said this. People made it up.

 

[ArtieE]

For Trailblazer:

The Baha'i don't believe in reincarnation, right?
Reincarnation, Rebirth and the Progress of the Soul

Krishna was a prophet or Manifestation of God, right?
BBC - Religions - Bahai: God's prophets

Krishna taught reincarnation...
Reincarnation—The Soul’s Journey on the Wheel of Birth and Death

 

[ArtieE]

Sorry, I do not have any. All I have is from Baha'i Writings. I believe what Abdu'l-Baha wrote because of the Covenant of Baha'u'llah. YMMV.

OK. Maybe in the future you shouldn't claim something unless you have other independent objective sources in addition to Baha'i Writings?

 

[ArtieE]

There are not thousands of gods, there is only one true God, according to my beliefs.
For what reason would there ever be thousands of gods? No scriptures ever said this. People made it up.

Sorry forgot the link. Here's a selection of Gods We Don’t Believe In

 

[Trailblazer]

OK. Maybe in the future you shouldn't claim something unless you have other independent objective sources in addition to Baha'i Writings?

That is no doubt true.
It is just what I believe, I cannot claim it as truth.

 

[Trailblazer]

Sorry forgot the link. Here's a selection of Gods We Don’t Believe In

Thanks.
Wow, that's a lot of gods that don't exist, all except the one at the bottom.

 

[ArtieE]

For what reason would there ever be thousands of gods? No scriptures ever said this. People made it up.

You can't ask for what reason there would be thousands of gods. You haven't even given me a reason why the god you believe in would exist in the first place. Or there's one reason... people made it up...?

 

[ArtieE]

Thanks.
Wow, that's a lot of gods that don't exist, all except the one at the bottom.

And that means that you are in practice an atheist who has made an exception for one single god while I have made no exceptions to the list.

 

[Shad]

No, I was just tired so I can barely read, let alone comprehend.
I was not whining.
Is it really necessary to insult me?

At what point does pointing out a bundle of mistakes you made not insulting?

Guess what? All atheists do not act this way. Some of them are very courteous and they are not looking to win arguments. They just want to have discussions.

How can I have a discussion with someone that does not even understand the phrases and terms I am using? You just say "no I disagree" without any further points. How is that a discussion?

 

[Shad]

I did it because I have been on this forum for about 10 hours with no break so I can barely think.

Sleep dude and get off of RF for a bit.

Another reason is that God wants our faith.

This does not make sense as without proof people have faith in their religion not God.

Please note how old this thread is. I have basically had it with the insults. Some atheists are really respectful, but I have to wade through muck to find them. It is not worth it anymore. If they do not care if there is a God why should I care for them?

I assume your religion has some belief about belief vs lack of belief that is a motivating factor

I do not want to debate anymore -- I'm right and you're wrong, you said this, no you said that... it is so childish -- but if people want to know what I believe and why, I will be glad to explain that to the best of my ability.

This is not directed at you, and I apologize if I was short. I am stretched really thin, and I should not even be on this forum.

You need to take a break and relax

 

[Trailblazer]

You can't ask for what reason there would be thousands of gods. You haven't even given me a reason why the god you believe in would exist in the first place. Or there's one reason... people made it up...?

I cannot tell you why I believe there is only One True God instead of many gods; I can only tell you "some reasons" why "I believe" that the One True God exists, by looking at what Baha'u'llah has written.

Baha'u'llah wrote that God and His Creation have always existed so we can deduce that the reason God exists is somehow related to His Creation, and mankind in particular. It is related to God's effect upon humanity and the destiny of the true believer, which implies that the existence of God is necessary for humans to become what they can "potentially" become, a reflection of God on Earth, since man is made in the image of God. Here are some passages that express that theme.

“The signs of God shine as manifest and resplendent as the sun amidst the works of His creatures. Whatsoever proceedeth from Him is apart, and will always remain distinguished, from the inventions of men. From the Source of His knowledge countless Luminaries of learning and wisdom have risen, and out of the Paradise of His Pen the breath of the All-Merciful hath continually been wafted to the hearts and souls of men. Happy are they that have recognized this truth.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 144

“It is clear and evident that when the veils that conceal the realities of the manifestations of the Names and Attributes of God, nay of all created things visible or invisible, have been rent asunder, nothing except the Sign of God will remain—a sign which He, Himself, hath placed within these realities. This sign will endure as long as is the wish of the Lord thy God, the Lord of the heavens and of the earth. If such be the blessings conferred on all created things, how superior must be the destiny of the true believer, whose existence and life are to be regarded as the originating purpose of all creation.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 140-141

 

[Trailblazer]

And that means that you are in practice an atheist who has made an exception for one single god while I have made no exceptions to the list.

No, I am not an atheist, because I believe in the One True God.
There was never any need for more than one God, given God is omnipotent and omniscient.

 

[Trailblazer]

At what point does pointing out a bundle of mistakes you made not insulting?

It is insulting someone when you constantly point out their mistakes. A better way to handle that is to try to understand what they meant or re-convey your points. If you do not have the patience for that, please do not post to me. I try to live by the following teachings of my religion and it is difficult to do so when I am constantly put on the defensive.

“The most hateful characteristic of man is fault-finding.” (‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Star of the West, Vol. IV, No.11, p. 192)

26: O SON OF BEING! How couldst thou forget thine own faults and busy thyself with the faults of others? Whoso doeth this is accursed of Me. The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 10

How can I have a discussion with someone that does not even understand the phrases and terms I am using? You just say "no I disagree" without any further points. How is that a discussion?

Then don't try to have one. That is your solution.
I am not going to go back and look at what I said last night in an effort to defend myself. I do not know what I said and I do not care. Every day is a new day.

Owing to some recent exchanges on this forum, I have decided that l will only post to people like Artie who want to talk to me respectfully. I am not looking to debate anyone or win any arguments, I am only here for civil discussions.

 

[Trailblazer]

This does not make sense as without proof people have faith in their religion not God.

God communicates to humans through Messengers who establish religions, so if we have faith in the Messenger and His religion, we have faith in God. In other words, God is not going to prove that he exists in any other way than by sending Messengers. Having faith in them is having faith in God, since they are God's Representatives on earth.

I assume your religion has some belief about belief vs lack of belief that is a motivating factor.

Of course my religion has scriptures about belief and non-belief. I do not know what you mean by "motivating factor." Motivating factor for what?

You need to take a break and relax

Thanks, but that is difficult for me to do, and even if I am off RF I am not relaxing, as I have so many responsibilities that I have to deal with owing to having 3 houses and 10 cats.

I have been trying to lay low on forums so I can get some of these things done, which is why I am not starting any new threads and mostly only responding to posts that are sent directly to me.

 

[Bird123]

In the sense that they know themselves they know something about God since we are made in the image of God.

That is true, God is unknowable.

I believe in the Messengers because there is evidence that indicate they really got messages from God. They not only wrote scriptures, they accomplished missions on earth. What can you provide that indicates God spoke to you?

And yet you think you understand God.
The Messengers do not know the Essence of God, nobody does.

Not ready for what? To believe that you know something about God that Messengers don't know?

Clearly, you do not understand a word I have said. It's not about me. Hmmm? Maybe there is another way to bring light.

Your religion wants to condemn, blame, punish. Let's start with that. What is more important to you? Say you had a troubled child making very bad choices. Choice 1. condemn, blame and punish. Choice 2. Fix your child through education.

You say you demand justice. Is justice really payback for the hurt that was caused? What is more important Payback or fixing the child?

Do you think trying to alter the actions of another by inflicting pain is really a viable option. Aren't there better ways intelligent people can use? If you attempt to alter other's actions through pain, aren't you teaching them that hurting others to get your way is a viable choice? Do you really want to teach people that?

Your religion claims some people are better than others through their choices. You have evil people and you have good believers. Do your children's actions determine the love you have for them? Why would you think God loves those believers more than those troubled souls choosing hard lessons?

Your religion says God gave you free will. If God gives free will why would God send a holy book with threats of hell to intimidate your actions? Are threats and intimidation really a higher level?

Sure, there is some good in holy books. Some of what they say about love is good. On the other hand, the evil and hate they teach is in there as well. They do not realize they do this because they value those petty things and do not realize they are wrong.

God is at a Higher Level above these petty things. That is how I know those messengers do not know God. God isn't going to be doing these things. God isn't going to be teaching people to do these things. Why? Because it is not Intelligent!!

God gave everyone a different view to guaranty mankind a larger view than any one person could have. I bet that Atheist friend of yours can see this in your religion. Widen that view. There is more to see. IT STARES YOU IN THE FACE!!!!

 

[Trailblazer]

Clearly, you do not understand a word I have said. It's not about me. Hmmm? Maybe there is another way to bring light.

I understand everything you said; I just do not agree with you.

Your religion wants to condemn, blame, punish. Let's start with that. What is more important to you? Say you had a troubled child making very bad choices. Choice 1. condemn, blame and punish. Choice 2. Fix your child through education.

My religion does not do that; my religion seeks justice and sometimes that requires punishment.
My religion seeks to educate in order to prevent the problems in the first place. It is not an either/or.

You say you demand justice. Is justice really payback for the hurt that was caused? What is more important Payback or fixing the child?

I was not referring to children, I was referring to adults who are FULLY responsible for their actions.
I was not talking about payback, i was talking about justice. Revenge is not necessary for justice but punishment often is.

Do you think trying to alter the actions of another by inflicting pain is really a viable option. Aren't there better ways intelligent people can use? If you attempt to alter other's actions through pain, aren't you teaching them that hurting others to get your way is a viable choice? Do you really want to teach people that?

Punishment for crimes is not teaching them to hurt others, it is teaching them not to hurt others. Punishment needs to fit the crime and it does not involve inflicting pain. What are we supposed to do, reward a murderer for killing someone? Get real.

Your religion claims some people are better than others through their choices. You have evil people and you have good believers. Do your children's actions determine the love you have for them? Why would you think God loves those believers more than those troubled souls choosing hard lessons?

My religions teaches that all people are not equal in the sight of God because people can be good or evil. It has nothing to do with whether they are believers or non-believers. People are who they are according to their actions, and they have free will to choose, so they are fully responsible for their choices, unless they are mentally ill or mentally challenged, or a child under the age of reason.

Your religion says God gave you free will. If God gives free will why would God send a holy book with threats of hell to intimidate your actions? Are threats and intimidation really a higher level?

There are no threats of hell in my holy book, just explanations about how we make our own hell, by our own choices.

Sure, there is some good in holy books. Some of what they say about love is good. On the other hand, the evil and hate they teach is in there as well. They do not realize they do this because they value those petty things and do not realize they are wrong.

No holy book teaches us to hate or do evil, they teach us to love and do good.
I have no idea what you mean by petty things. What is petty?.

God is at a Higher Level above these petty things. That is how I know those messengers do not know God. God isn't going to be doing these things. God isn't going to be teaching people to do these things. Why? Because it is not Intelligent!!

What petty things? Messengers do not teach petty things.

God gave everyone a different view to guaranty mankind a larger view than any one person could have. I bet that Atheist friend of yours can see this in your religion. Widen that view. There is more to see. IT STARES YOU IN THE FACE!!!!

If everyone just did what they pleased, following their own ideas of right and wrong, some people would do good and some would do evil, because without religion there is no guidance at all. The fact that so many people no longer follow the teachings of their religions is why we see evil and chaos in the world today.

 

[HonestJoe]

If God exists and we cannot prove that there would be a need for belief and faith.

Nobody “needs” to believe in a god, even if one exists. It’s more to the point that if you can’t prove god exists, all you have is blind faith.

I have determined that the Baha’i Faith is true, but I still need faith to believe that God exists and has certain Attributes, because that can never be proven.

If the basis for your religion is built on faith, the entire thing is based on faith by definition. If that foundation were removed, the entire thing would collapse.

How do you know that other people are asking exactly the same questions as me in exactly the same way and that we have the same methods of determining the answers?

Because you’re a human being. People have been doing the same kind of thing you’re doing throughout recorded history. I see no reason to treat you as some special case with a unique revelation.

They can SAY anything they want to SAY, but do they have evidence to support it?

So yes, exactly the same as you.

I do not think any of those religions say that the Bible prophecies or the prophecies of other religions were fulfilled by their Prophet.

Christianity literally says Jesus was the fulfilment of Old Testament prophecy. The Abrahamic faiths (including Baha’i) all developed from the same sources and so have a massive amount in common.

If the evidence indicated “to you” that God exists, why wouldn’t you want to worship that God?

Why worship anything? Worship effectively establishes a theocratic dictatorship.

God cannot be proved as a fact, like a scientific fact, because God is immaterial and unknowable.

How can you know God is unknowable? The only reason the concept can’t be proven is that it has been specifically defined so that it can’t be proven. Or, of course, disproven.

 

[night912]

And yet you think you understand God.
The Messengers do not know the Essence of God, nobody does.

And you've once again contradicted yourself. Tell me, how do you know that nobody knows the essence of god, if nobody knows the essence of god? If I claim to know the essence of god and you don't, how did you determined that I don't know?

 

[Trailblazer]

And you've once again contradicted yourself. Tell me, how do you know that nobody knows the essence of god, if nobody knows the essence of god? If I claim to know the essence of god and you don't, how did you determined that I don't know?

I know that nobody knows the Essence of God because Baha'u'llah wrote that.

He did not need to know the Essence of God in order to write that, all he needed was a message from God saying nobody knows My Essence... Here is one such passage:

“The conceptions of the devoutest of mystics, the attainments of the most accomplished amongst men, the highest praise which human tongue or pen can render are all the product of man’s finite mind and are conditioned by its limitations. Ten thousand Prophets, each a Moses, are thunderstruck upon the Sinai of their search at His forbidding voice, “Thou shalt never behold Me!”; whilst a myriad Messengers, each as great as Jesus, stand dismayed upon their heavenly thrones by the interdiction, “Mine Essence thou shalt never apprehend!”From time immemorial He hath been veiled in the ineffable sanctity of His exalted Self, and will everlastingly continue to be wrapt in the impenetrable mystery of His unknowable Essence. Every attempt to attain to an understanding of His inaccessible Reality hath ended in complete bewilderment, and every effort to approach His exalted Self and envisage His Essence hath resulted in hopelessness and failure.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 62-63