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Atheists: If God existed would God……

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Not directly, no.
..but something was most certainly going on.
It is a tall order, to claim that the Abrahamic G-d is a conspiracy that spans centuries.
So you believe that any religion that last for centuries and has a mass following is necessarily true.

You don't say :rolleyes:
So you agree that just because an idea is popular and long-lasting, doesn't make it true.

I'm used to atheists making false statements, and that is yet another.
You will never agree to the significance of religion,
The irony here is eye-watering. They literally just replied ... "Why would I deny their significance? Obviously they had big impact on western and middle eastern culture."

I know that is absolute nonsense.
There is the Bible and there is the Qur'an.
Billions of people are satisfied that there is enough evidence to believe in G-d.
Billions of people believe in their various religions because of childhood indoctrination. Subsequent cognitive dissonance makes any rational assessment of the actual evidence almost impossible.
You do realise that your argument is actually an argument against there being genuine "evidence" in religious texts? Wildly different and essentially contradictory beliefs are all validated by this "evidence". Therefore the evidence is unreliable. Remember that if there is only one god and one way of worshiping him, there can be no evidence for any other.

They didn't dream it up themselves, like your 'Gandalf' was. ;)
Your argument is pathetic
Whuh? The Lord of the Rings was written by one person. Everyone else's knowledge of Gandalf came from that book, either directly or by word of mouth (much like the Bible and Quran). They didn't all independently come up with the story. :confused:
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Billions of people believe in their various religions because of childhood indoctrination.
It is not as simple as that.
It is true that our childhood has a significant effect on us.
..but many people turn away from G-d for various reasons, despite this.

I know you will probably claim that this is due to education about evolution etc.
..but I don't agree. Only literalists believe that G-d created humans by "abracadabra".
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
I was not referring to objective facts, I was referring to objective evidence.

evidence
noun
  1. the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.
;)

God can never be proven as an objective fact because God does not want to be known as an objective fact.

I never asked for proof, I asked for objective evidence, and you are doing your usual dishonest sematic tap dance. Nice circular reasoning fallacy though.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
You claim a lot of objective facts about a being that can never be known as an objective fact. :)
To be fair, she claims that asserting a belief is not a claim, and no amount of explaining this has helped disavow here of this ridiculous notion. I tired of the merry go around, and just respond occasionally now, to see if there has been any progress.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
I did not claim an objective fact. That is my belief based upon scriptures and logical reasoning.
See what I just said to Sheldon.:)
#1917 Trailblazer, 3 minutes ago

Yes it is a common disingenuous tactic apologists employ form time to time, but it is of course facile nonsense.

Everything is influenced by personal feelings or opinions.

So you're saying it's not an objective fact that the earth is not flat? That's just a matter of perspective and subjective opinion then? :eek::rolleyes:

I'm afraid I shall have to disagree.
 
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Sheldon

Veteran Member
it is your personal opinion that if a deity existed it would be proven to exist but that is logically impossible if a deity exists because if a deity exists that deity has never been proven to exist...

No it isn't, and I have literally never claimed anything like that, so that's very dishonest.

Of course, if an omnipotent deity exists it could prove that it exists to everyone but what the deity could do is a moot point, as it only matters what a deity has done.

Objectively nothing then.

So the only logical options that are available to you are as follows:

1. A deity exists and has chosen not to prove it exists and that is why there is no proof, or
2. No deity exists and that is why there is no proof of the deity.

It's sad that after all these many months of tortured explanations you think a known logical fallacy, like a false dichotomy you have used here, is logical. Sadly I have learned that when you use the word logic it is pure rhetoric.

I vote for #1 based upon the Bible and the Baha'i Writings..

Selection bias, based on a false dichotomy fallacy.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
The correct method is to look at the evidence for yourself but not everyone will come to the same conclusions... Why would they?
Obviously one can't expect a consensus, unless the "evidence" is examined objectively, and it is objective evidence, and thus makes is compelling case. Which is not the case here obviously, as you admit your "evidence" is no different than the subjective claims of other religions.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I have rebutted my critics numerous times, you simply reject my assessments.

No, you don't rebut. You disagree, but don't rebut. Rebuttal is a specific type of disagreement. It involves giving a counterargument to a claim or an argument that attempts to show why the rebutted comment cannot be correct. Answers like, "That's just your opinion" or "It's evidence to me" are not rebuttals, but bare dissent. When I outline a list of logical possibilities longer than yours, which contained only two, and tell that you make a logical error dropping the entries I provided and the only one you named without giving a justification for doing that, a rebuttal is a statement of why you didn't do those things, or an argument why they are appropriate - something that if correct, makes the statement wrong if you are correct. And so, my comment stands unrebutted. Until somebody successfully rebuts it, I have no choice but to consider it correct. It seems correct to me, and you haven't shown otherwise.

You just demonstrated just how arrogant you are by identifying yourself as part of the “chorus of skilled critical thinkers.”

Actually, you did that. I wrote, "The fact that you can't understand what is being told you is on you, not the chorus of skilled critical thinkers singing in unison that your reasoning is faulty." I agree that you should suspect that I consider myself one of that group, and if asked I would tell you that I do. But the fact is that I humbly referred to that group without mention of myself, you converted it to me boasting, and called me arrogant for an opinion humbly not expressed.

Why would it matter even if everyone on this forum believed my reasoning is faulty?

I can tell you why it would matter to me. I am aware that there is a process that generates correct ideas, and I recognize that many others do this, as do I. I can make a mistake. If I do, I wouldn't be surprised to see several people competent in that thinking process disagree with me. So, if and when that happens, I take note and reexamine my own thinking, usually through dialectic with other critical thinkers.

How many people believe something has nothing to do with whether it is true or false. That is the fallacy of argumentum ad populum

You misunderstand the fallacy. I am not saying that you are wrong because so many people say so. I say that you are wrong because I can identify errors in your thinking, like this one. I also say that as the number of competent critical thinkers that agree with assessment grows, it makes it more likely that you are wrong, and that that should give you reason to question your thinking. So notice, it is not because of consensus that I reject your thinking, which would be the ad populum fallacy, but because I can see it flaws myself.

I did not drop anything from your list of logical reasons. I committed no logical error unless you can show that I committed logical fallacies.

I have shown everybody else. You gave me your list of two. I expanded it to several others. You were back to two almost immediately without rebuttal of the extra element you dropped again, and then you went on to drop one of your two without rebuttal to the idea that a logical explanation for why we have only unpersuasive (to the critical thinker) messages and no better evidence for a deity is that no such deity exists. To me, that's plain, clear and simple: "Here's my list, here's yours, where did the difference go to on your list?" No answer better than the one above.

Do you not see the logical error in saying, "I committed no logical error unless you can show that I committed logical fallacies"? Rhetorical question.

I have a certain religious belief and you have a personal opinion which differs from my belief. It is as simple as that.

That's not our area of disagreement, so it is not as simple as that. Were it as simple as that, there'd be nothing to discuss. I don't mind that your beliefs are different from mine, nor that you come to them by a different method. My objections are to your claims that your beliefs are based in reason, and also your idea of what constitutes arrogance.

We did this before you and I, when you were defending either naturopathy or homeopathy - I've forgotten which one you advocate. I wouldn't have even commented to you on that until you identified it as superior to mainstream medicine. That's misinformation that I chose to rebut, and once again, you took the huffy attitude that that's just my opinion and that I was arrogant to hold such a position. Really? I'm a retired physician.

Incidentally, there is no such thing as alternative medicine. If a proposed remedy is efficacious, it's medicine. If not, it's placebo or toxin.
 
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It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
This is very different than if you were to add a column of numbers incorrectly and come up with a wrong sum because math is not the same as religion!

I compared addition to reasoning, since it an example of pure reason, not to religion. I am not commenting on your beliefs, but your method of arriving at them and your claims for them. Reason is a path. What you do is more like sailing the open seas. A path directs one to a desired destination, in this case, justified belief, just as the Panama canal is a path from one ocean to another. You're on the open seas, and can sail in any direction on the open seas, but most won't get you to any specific destination.

if a deity exists and what I have is evidence of the deity, it is, whether people believe it or not

But that's not your claim. You are not making a conditional argument, which is a formal argument (if this is true then that would be true as well by inference), but one with an unshared premise, and therefore unable to generate sound conclusions using any reasoning.

It's also not correct were it your claim. You might have guessed correctly that a deity exists, but it doesn't make what you offered as evidence support for your belief.

I do not think in terms of right and wrong because that creates unnecessary conflict -- I am right and you are wrong.

I do think in terms of right and wrong, truth and error. It was my job - to try to be correct, an idea that implies that some ideas are true and others error. It normally doesn't create any conflict for me. In this case, it has.

you could be wrong, but I don’t expect you to change your mind. You are stuck in your present position and if it is wrong, you will never see that or move past it.

Yes, I could be wrong, and if I am, I welcome being enlightened. I won't change my mind for no reason, but if you can give me a compelling argument that contradicts me, it will change my mind. It happened recently on one of these threads. I told another poster that I could see that my argument might not be as good as I had thought - that I needed to ruminate on the matter - but that I wouldn't be making that argument again unless I resolved the uncertainty his rebuttal created for me. And it was a rebuttal. It was a statement that, if correct, meant I must be wrong.

On the other hand, you could be wrong, and would never see that, because you cannot dispassionately evaluate an argument for soundness. The closed-mindedness you suggested is the case with me is actually the case with you. There is simply no way to get correct ideas into your head. That's what faith does - it closes a mind to reason. You're locked into your present position no matter what is actually true or what evidence or argument shows that you are wrong.

273944660_10165978648225150_7873842403942929477_n.jpg


Why isn’t my position logical? That should not be difficult to answer. If you cannot answer it then I will assume that you have nothing but a nebulous personal opinion of me as an illogical person.

I have answered that. You are not prepared to benefit from the answer, nor even remember it apparently.

Regarding the third sentence, there's another conclusion possible regarding why I cannot answer that for you. I've already given you that alternative understanding. I'll leave it to your critical thinking skills to decide what that other possibility is, and to explain how you have ruled it out.
 
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ppp

Well-Known Member
To be fair, she claims that asserting a belief is not a claim, and no amount of explaining this has helped disavow here of this ridiculous notion. I tired of the merry go around, and just respond occasionally now, to see if there has been any progress.
I agree. My investment has reduced to one or two sentences, as well.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
What if it’s you that’s wrong though?

Do you never even consider you may be wrong about all this stuff, including the absolute primacy of logic and reason, in a world where absolutes are innately unreasonable anyway?
I have. Of course the dilemma for theists is that you are included in being as uncertain about anything being true. Theists often claim they have evidence and have reached a rational conclusion about God. So if reasoning is flawed as you suggest then whatever theists believe is also in question.

But logic and reason are demonstrably reliable. Facts are consistent. What theists claim as truth remains unverifiable, and even more dubious as time goes on and science reveals how brains work, and how humans evolved to be religious over many thousands of years. Theists even disagree with each other which suggests they don't have any sort of valid and factual truth, rather they hold a set of cultural beliefs that they adopted from other people.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
There is, but you don't accept it.
No. There isn't any "evidence". There are only "claims". The difference is very, very important.

However, if you present your single best example of this "evidence" I will happily explain why it is actually no such thing.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Science can't tell you why you exist .. science can't save mankind from themselves.
Science can offer suggestions to humanity so humans can decide to act in a way that helps the planet. But humans are largely tribal, self-serving, and non-rational. Humans are not very good at making proactive decisions about a threat that is not directly impacting them. This has many reasons.

It is the "age of reason" and subsequent 'industrial revolution' that is responsible for the mess we've created for ourselves.
There is no turning back WWIII is inevitable .. may G-d forgive us.
Humans have always moved towards progress. What hasn't happened is a more evolved and wise brain that is capable of making more objective and logical choices. Look at Christians who believe the Rapture is coming and they say not to worry about pollution or green house gas emissions. They are damaging the planet for everyone else who is not part of their tribe. And they are no more receptive to listening to reason than you are because they believe they have religious truth that is beyond question. That illustrates the danger of irrational belief.

You can scoff all you like .. mankind will experience "more primitive times" once more, whether they like it or not.
It's always b***** money. :(
You might be right about this. I suspect there will be a collapse in one way or another, perhaps with the electric grid or famine or drought or a series of weather events that are catastrophic. Humans have been lucky so far. But luck seems to be running out, and with the global population growing consistently there will be a breaking point eventually.

Even the pandemic wasn't very severe due to science. At some point the science won't be enough and won't be in time. When? Don't know.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
It is not as simple as that.
Kinda is, generally speaking. Religious people almost always follow the faith of their family/community.

It is true that our childhood has a significant effect on us.
..but many people turn away from G-d for various reasons, despite this.

I know you will probably claim that this is due to education about evolution etc.
..but I don't agree. Only literalists believe that G-d created humans by "abracadabra".
Becoming aware of the actual, demonstrable, natural explanations for things (eduction) they were told could only happen by god is certainly one element of it. Developing better critical faculties is another. Sometimes it just takes a move from the protective and reinforcing bubble of family/community.
But you are correct, the indoctrination doesn't always last.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Science can't tell you why you exist
Why does there have to be a "why"?

science can't save mankind from themselves.
It might. It is unwise to make absolute claims about an uncertain future.

It is the "age of reason" and subsequent 'industrial revolution' that is responsible for the mess we've created for ourselves.
Mankind has usually made a horlicks of things. It is just that we can now do it on an industrial, global scale.

There is no turning back WWIII is inevitable ..
Only if it is what Allah has decreed. If he has decreed all mankind will live in peace and harmony, that that is also inevitable. Fingers crossed, eh?

may G-d forgive us.
Depending on what he has decreed, will we be able to forgive him?
 
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