Atheists: If God existed would God……

[night912]

No, my faith comes from Messengers of God, who are not 'other people.'

The Messengers of God are another order of creation above an ordinary man because they are both divine and human. Their souls had pre-existence in the spiritual world (heaven) before their bodies were born in this world, whereas the souls of all humans come into being at the moment of conception. The spiritual world is where Messengers get their special powers from God. They possess a universal divine mind that is different than ours and that is why God can speak to Them through the Holy Spirit and through Them God communicates to humanity.

Does anyone want to bet that Trailblazer is not going to get butthurt if I point out that she just contradicted herself?

 

[samtonga43]

I was not a fervent or committed believer back when I hated God, I was a moderate believer. Later, the more fervent and committed I became the less my beliefs have changed.

I believe this says such a lot! Tb, will you read this again and think about it? No need to respond - please just think.

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe this says such a lot! Tb, will you read this again and think about it? No need to respond - please just think.

It does say a lot but it does not say what you think it says.
I do not have to think about what it means because I lived through it and thought about what it means for many years.

I alone know what it means because I experienced it and analyzed it. You can only imagine what you think it might mean but you cannot know what I experienced or what it means from a couple of sentences I post on a forum.

 

[samtonga43]

It does say a lot but it does not say what you think it says.

How do you know?

 

[Trailblazer]

How do you know?

How do I know that it does not say what you think it says?
Tell me what you think it says and then I will tell you if you are right.

 

[Aupmanyav]

That is a straw man because I have told people on this forum repeatedly that the evidence is not what Baha'u'llah wrote.

If what Bahaollah wrote is not evidence, then what and where is evidence?

Does anyone want to bet that Trailblazer is not going to get butthurt if I point out that she just contradicted herself?

Trailblazer is immune to that kind of pain.

Taketh, giveth, eateth, sleepeth, waketh, laugheth, weepeth. Bangeth his/her head against the wall.

 

[F1fan]

I tend to ignore stupid questions.

So now you cast an insult while you avoid my question, which was only asking you to clarify something you said.

 

[F1fan]

Yes. Education of all religions is important, I agree.
I'm just pointing out that I was fortunate to be able to go into more detail of the Divine, due to the school I attended, and its syllabus.

Do you consider the "divine" a fact? If so, I'm curious why you think so.

 

[F1fan]

It's not a universal religion. It's more of a culture, and has different beliefs and non-divine practices and so on.

Well there are no universal religions. Hindus are mostly in India and have hundreds of Gods. Do you think they are wrong in their many Gods?

 

[Aupmanyav]

You only SAY I have faults in my logical reasoning process but you have yet to explain what is wrong with my logical reasoning process. What is the evidence?

You have yourself said that what Bahaollah wrote is not evidence (Refer to my post above). You do not know if what Bahaollah said is true or false. Whether he was on a mission from any God or whether he was a charlatan fooling people. Then what made you a Bahai? And then, why do you quote what Bahaollah wrote as God's own word all the time? That is why people say that your thinking and belief is not logical.

Hindus are mostly in India and have hundreds of Gods. Do you think they are wrong in their many Gods?

Why just the Hindus? For Bahais, all people who follow any religion other than Bahaism are wrong. They are following out-dated religions. Whether they are Jews, Chirstians, Muslim, LDS, Ismailies, Ahmadiyyas, Dawoodi Bohras, Hindus, Buddhists, Jains, Zoroastrians or following various pagan religions. The whole 8 billion people of the world are wrong except the so-reported 5 or 7 million Bahais.

 

[Trailblazer]

If what Bahaollah wrote is not evidence, then what and where is evidence? Trailblazer is immune to that kind of pain.

What Baha'u'llah wrote is only part of the evidence.

Below is what Baha’u’llah wrote about the 'evidence' that establishes the truth of His claims. Baha’u’llah enjoined us to look at His own Self (His character), His Revelation (His mission and works, which can be seen in Baha'i history), and if those are insufficient we are to look at His words (His Writings).

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

His own Self is who He was, His character (His qualities). That can be determined by reading about Him in books such as the following: The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4

His Revelation is what He accomplished (His Mission on earth/ the history of His Cause)
That can be determined by reading about His mission in books such as the following:
God Passes By (1844-1944)
The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4, which cover the 40 years of His Mission, from 1853-1892.

The words He hath revealed is what He wrote can be found in books that are posted online:
The Works of Bahá'u'lláh

 

[Trailblazer]

You have yourself said that what Bahaollah wrote is not evidence (Refer to my post above).

I have said it is not the only evidence, I never said it was not part of the evidence. The Writings of Baha'u'llah are part of the evidence, as I just posted to you above.

You do not know if what Bahaollah said is true or false. Whether he was on a mission from any God or whether he was a charlatan fooling people. Then what made you a Bahai?

Why I became a Baha'i initially had little to do with what Baha'u'llah wrote. I read mostly what Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi wrote and what other Baha'is wrote about the Baha'i Faith. I am an idealist so I was attracted to the primary message of Baha'u'llah, the oneness of mankind, the oneness of religion, world unity, and world peace.

And then, why do you quote what Bahaollah wrote as God's own word all the time? That is why people say that your thinking and belief is not logical.

I believe that it is God's Word, just as Christians believe that the Bible is God's Word and Muslims believe that the Qur'an is God's Word. There is nothing illogical about that. People only say it is illogical because they do not like my belief.

 

[ppp]

I believe that it is God's Word, just as Christians believe that the Bible is God's Word and Muslims believe that the Qur'an is God's Word. There is nothing illogical about that. People only say it is illogical because they do not like my belief.

There's nothing logical about it either. It doesn't appeal to logic in any way. Propositional logic takes a certain form, and nothing in that paragraph that you wrote comes even close to that form. It's just a statement. Nothing more.

 

[F1fan]

You not only have to say I committed logical errors, you have to explain what they are and how I committed them.

Most all of us have. You ignore the explanations.

What is the logical error and what is the evidence that I have committed the logical error?

The evidence is any of your comments with flawed thinking.

"Skilled critical thinkers." So you are skilled and I am not skilled?

Skill is learned and demonstrated. As we point out the evidence you believe in adequate for your judgment that a God exists is weak, and way too low for what is considered adequate in law and reasoning. The evidence you rely on is hearsay, and that is seldom allowed in court.

What makes you skilled, just because you say you are skilled?

No, because I have learned the rules of logic and many fallacies. Plus I have a primary interest in knowing what is true or at least likely true. I also understand that my desires for some outcome in reasoning is a bias I need to be aware of and avoid. As I need, skill in reasoning is demonstrated, and other skilled thinkers can recognize this skill in others, as well as the flaws in others. This is why you are facing numerous smart and educated people who explain in good detail how your thinking is flawed. Your response tends to be ignoring the criticisms and/or denying they are valid. You sometimes post quotes from websites that define fallacies but you fail to explain how your critics fit these definitions. You appears you pick fallacies at random.

If I say I am skilled why am I not also skilled?

Because your comments reveal that you lack skill.

You fall into the category of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

 

[Trailblazer]

There's nothing logical about it either. It doesn't appeal to logic in any way. Propositional logic takes a certain form, and nothing in that paragraph that you wrote comes even close to that form. It's just a statement. Nothing more.

I never said it was logical, I said it is not illogical. Religious beliefs are not subject to logic which means they are neither logical or illogical.

 

[Trailblazer]

Most all of us have. You ignore the explanations.

I ignore nothing. Nobody has.

 

[F1fan]

I have said it is not the only evidence, I never said it was not part of the evidence. The Writings of Baha'u'llah are part of the evidence, as I just posted to you above.

Why don't you list your bulletpoints of evidence that convinced you as a skilled thinker. All of it.

Why I became a Baha'i initially had little to do with what Baha'u'llah wrote. I read mostly what Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi wrote and what other Baha'is wrote about the Baha'i Faith. I am an idealist so I was attracted to the primary message of Baha'u'llah, the oneness of mankind, the oneness of religion, world unity, and world peace.

OK, that all sounds good. But what about this suggests it is evidence of a supernatural existing?

I believe that it is God's Word, just as Christians believe that the Bible is God's Word and Muslims believe that the Qur'an is God's Word. There is nothing illogical about that. [/quote]
So all those believers are correct in their beliefs about those different texts that make conflicting claims? How is that not illogical? Look up the law of non-contradiction.

People only say it is illogical because they do not like my belief.

False. Like above you say you believe your text just as other believers believe their texts, but these texts contradict each other, so someone is wrong. This is you being illogical. Not all believers can be correct here. I suggest all are wrong.

 

[F1fan]

I never said it was logical, I said it is not illogical.

OMG. Look up the law of non-contradiction. Fast!!

 

[ppp]

I never said it was logical, I said it is not illogical. Religious beliefs are not subject to logic which means they are neither logical or illogical.

Which makes them indistinguishable from fiction.

 

[F1fan]

Religious beliefs are not subject to logic which means they are neither logical or illogical.

Who says?