Atheists: If God existed would God……

[Trailblazer]

Books are not the primary source of knowledge.

What other source of knowledge is there that would enable us to know if there is a deity?

 

[ppp]

What other source of knowledge is there that would enable us to know if there is a deity?

How is that relevant? I know you want to avoid saying, so don't. But write the reason down in 30 words or fewer on a piece of paper and think about it.

 

[Trailblazer]

How is that relevant? I know you want to avoid saying, so don't. But write the reason down in 30 words or fewer on a piece of paper and think about it.

It is only relevant if you want to know anything about the deity, since there is no other way to know.

 

[ppp]

It is only relevant if you want to know anything about the deity, since there is no other way to know.

That's okay. I am not going to try to drag it out of you.

 

[Trailblazer]

That's okay. I am not going to try to drag it out of you.

Good, because there is nothing to drag out.

 

[Trailblazer]

Logic does apply to everything in the universe by definition - it would be useless without that principle since the moment you have one thing beyond logic, that thing could render anything else beyond logic. The entire point of logic is that it is constant and repeatable.

Can you explain why you think logic applies to everything in the universe and why that it is constant and repeatable. What is your definition of logic? Without a definition I don’t know what we are discussing.

You've not explained why anything is beyond science or logic, you've merely made circular assertions that they are. If they were beyond logic, you couldn't explain why since that would require logic. Without logic, all you have is belief.

Before I proceed any further it would be a good idea for you to define what you mean by beyond science and beyond logic.

The whole essence vs attributes is an undefined distinction anyway but I don't see how the "essence" wouldn't influence the "attributes" and could therefore render them beyond logic too.

You have a good point. The essence and the attributes of God are not really separate, they are intertwined. I believe God’s essence is above all His attributes since God is transcendent. Even though I believe that God has certain attributes I don’t think God’s attributes define God and I don’t think we can ever understand God.

Before I say any more I need to know what you mean by beyond logic, because we might be thinking of something altogether different.

If God creates everything, that includes everything that causes our "choices". God is capable of creating people who would make any different set of choices throughout their lives but has chosen to create the people who will make the choices we do, good, bad and indifferent.

God created humans and gave them free will and that is what allows humans to choose. God chose to create the people who will make the choices they do, good, bad and indifferent. If God created humans who would different choices (choices God programmed them to make) then those would not be human free will choices.

Sure, but we're not talking about perspective, we're talking about absolute reality. We can certainly have the perception of free will but that perception could be artificial, all our "choices" actually being predetermined from the outset. And if there is (or could be) anything that is omnipotent, those "choices" must be predetermined.

Why do you think the existence of an omnipotent God would mean that human choices must be predetermined? I do not see the logical connection.

Yes, and as I said, we're not rational beings. Monotheistic religion in general is guilty of the same internal contradictions you're demonstrating here - God has control of everything yet is somehow not responsible for everything (though we're expect to thank him for the good ones).

I believe that humans have the capacity to be rational but they do not always exercise that capacity all the time since emotions enter in.

It makes logical sense to me that God has control of everything because God is all-powerful, but that does not make God responsible for everything. God could control everything but God chose to allow humans to have some control of their own destiny. Some things that happen to us we do not choose so they are beyond our control and they are fated/predestined by God.

I believe that God is responsible for what is beyond our control, which is what has been fated/predestined, both the good and the bad, as it says in Isaiah 45:7.

Again, science is an abstract principle. It doesn't do anything, it is just a tool that can be used. All it requires is the ability to observe the matter in question and the intelligence to understand it. By definition, anything that could be observed by any kind of intelligence (which would include God) is potentially within the scope of science.

Sure, anything that can be observed is within the scope of science, and if God could be observed God would be within that scope.

 

[samtonga43]

we all see things differently and you can only see what you see.

If we all see things differently, then it follows logically that we see 'evidence that God spoke to MrB', differently. Therefore this 'evidence' is of the subjective variety.

Sure, anything that can be observed is within the scope of science, and if God could be observed God would be within that scope.

Tautology.

 

[samtonga43]

I never claimed that I had any objective evidence that it WAS revealed by the deity to the Messenger of the deity.
Likewise, you have no objective evidence that anything WAS revealed by the deity to Jesus.
All you have is a book called the Bible telling you what Jesus and the deity allegedly did.

Correct. It's all subjective, isn't it?

 

[HonestJoe]

Before I proceed any further it would be a good idea for you to define what you mean by beyond science and beyond logic.

They're your concepts, you need to define them. That is a key part of what I'm asking you to do. You would need to define them to be able to explain how they apply to some things but not others (including different aspects of the same thing!).

To me, they sound like talking about a physical object that is "beyond height" or a visible object that is "beyond colour". These are characteristics that are implicit to things that exist.

You have a good point. The essence and the attributes of God are not really separate, they are intertwined.

And yet you are proposing some unexplained barrier between them that renders one part understandable but the other not?

If God created humans who would different choices (choices God programmed them to make) then those would not be human free will choices.

It doesn't matter what the "choices" are, they would be effectively pre-programmed by a God if he is omniscient and omnipotent. He could not created us in any form without knowing exactly what we would all choose to do in that form.

Why do you think the existence of an omnipotent God would mean that human choices must be predetermined? I do not see the logical connection.

Imagine I go for a drive tomorrow and reach a T-junction; I have a simple choice of gong left or right. If there is any kind of omnipotent being though, they already know which choice I will make. If they have always known I will choose left, it is literally impossible for me to choose right. I perceive right as an option I'm actively deciding against but in reality, it was never a conclusion I was going to reach.

It's a mind-boggling area of science and philosophy for which there are no definitive answers and lots of different ideas, but most of them wouldn't be consistent with the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient creator god, certainly not of the kind you believe in.

It makes logical sense to me that God has control of everything because God is all-powerful, but that does not make God responsible for everything. God could control everything but God chose to allow humans to have some control of their own destiny.

But since he knows the inevitable consequences of his choice, I don't see how he would be any less responsible for it.

I believe that God is responsible for what is beyond our control, which is what has been fated/predestined, both the good and the bad, as it says in Isaiah 45:7.

So you believe God is responsible for some objectively bad things?

Sure, anything that can be observed is within the scope of science, and if God could be observed God would be within that scope.

Can God observe himself? If he can, God can be observed and is therefore theoretically within the scope of science. Whether there are any beings capable of actually applying it is a different point, and not the one you appear to be making.

 

[Sheldon]

Books are where we get information. How else could we ever know if there is a deity?

From the deity, obviously. Nothing in any book evidences any deity, the books are the claims, not the evidence.

 

[Trailblazer]

From the deity, obviously.

The deity does not write books because He does not have hands and pens and paper.
The deity sends Messengers who do His writing for Him.

I await the usual response.....
"Oh, but the deity is omnipotent so he do he can do anything..."
LOL. 1000000000000000000000000 times lol.

 

[Trailblazer]

If we all see things differently, then it follows logically that we see 'evidence that God spoke to MrB', differently. Therefore this 'evidence' is of the subjective variety.

How we interpret the evidence is subjective but the evidence is objective evidence, by definition.

The following evidence (1-4) is objective evidence according to the definition because it can be examined and evaluated:

1. The character of Baha'u'llah
2. The life of Baha'u'llah
3. The mission of Baha'u'llah (the history)
4. The Writings of Baha'u'llah

What does objective evidence mean?

Objective evidence refers to information based on facts that can be proved by means of search like analysis, measurement, and observation. One can examine and evaluate objective evidence.

What does objective evidence mean?

 

[Trailblazer]

Correct. It's all subjective, isn't it?

#2532 Trailblazer, A moment ago

 

[Trailblazer]

They're your concepts, you need to define them. That is a key part of what I'm asking you to do. You would need to define them to be able to explain how they apply to some things but not others (including different aspects of the same thing!).

To me, they sound like talking about a physical object that is "beyond height" or a visible object that is "beyond colour". These are characteristics that are implicit to things that exist.

I will start with definitions and then apply them to way I was talking about before.

The definition of logical is something that makes sense according to the rules of logic, or something that is rational. An example of something that is logical is a carefully reasoned decision that makes sense and is the right course of action. adjective. Based on facts, rational thought, and clear reasoning.
What does logical mean? | Best 16 Definitions of Logical - YourDictionary

Science: the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.
science definition - Google Search

When I said that the Essence of God is beyond logic I meant that it is not subject to the rules of logic and it is not based upon facts, because it cannot ever be known.

When I said that God and the soul and the spiritual world (heaven) are not within the scope of science that is because they are not part of the physical and natural world which can be studied through observation and experiment.

And yet you are proposing some unexplained barrier between them that renders one part understandable but the other not?

The difference is that the attributes can be known from scriptures whereas the essence of God can never be known.

According to scripture, certain attributes that are unique to God. Only God is Eternal, Holy, Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, Omnipresent, All-Powerful, All-Knowing, All-Wise, Infallible, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, Sovereign, and Immaterial.

Some of God's other attributes are Good, Loving, Gracious, Merciful, Just, Righteous, Forgiving, Patient. Messengers of God perfectly reflect those attributes and humans have the potential to reflect those attributes because we are made in the image of God.

The essence of God is God’s intrinsic nature, such as what God is comprised of, how God functions, how the mind of God works, how and where God resides; nobody can ever know any of these things about God.

It doesn't matter what the "choices" are, they would be effectively pre-programmed by a God if he is omniscient and omnipotent. He could not created us in any form without knowing exactly what we would all choose to do in that form.

God knows exactly what we would all choose to do because God is omniscient, but what God knows is not what causes us to do anything.

From God’s perspective, everything that has ever happened or will ever happen in the future in this contingent world is as if it has already been accomplished and it is recorded in God’s holy and hidden Tablets. This foreknowledge of God, however, is not the cause of the actions of men. What causes the actions of men is volition and action.

Question.—If God has knowledge of an action which will be performed by someone, and it has been written on the Tablet of Fate, is it possible to resist it?

Answer.—The foreknowledge of a thing is not the cause of its realization; for the essential knowledge of God surrounds, in the same way, the realities of things, before as well as after their existence, and it does not become the cause of their existence. It is a perfection of God.
Some Answered Questions, p. 138

Imagine I go for a drive tomorrow and reach a T-junction; I have a simple choice of gong left or right. If there is any kind of omnipotent being though, they already know which choice I will make. If they have always known I will choose left, it is literally impossible for me to choose right. I perceive right as an option I'm actively deciding against but in reality, it was never a conclusion I was going to reach.

I guess you are referring to an omniscient (all-knowing) being, not an omnipotent (all-powerful) being? Yes, God has always known that you would choose to go left, so you will choose to go left, but the reason you will choose to go left is not because God always knew you will choose to go left; if you had chosen to go right, God would have always known you were going to go right. Right up till the time you make the choice to go right or left you can change your mind and God has always known that you were going to change your mind since God is all-knowing.

In short, we will do what God knows we will do because God knows what we will do, but it is not God’s knowledge that causes us to do what we decide to do. It is our own volition and action.

It's a mind-boggling area of science and philosophy for which there are no definitive answers and lots of different ideas, but most of them wouldn't be consistent with the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient creator god, certainly not of the kind you believe in.

I do not really see any contradictions between what I believe about the omnipotent/omniscient God and science. My religion teaches that anything that contradicts science is superstition.

But since he knows the inevitable consequences of his choice, I don't see how he would be any less responsible for it.

Why would God’s knowledge of human choices make God responsible for what we choose? I see no logical connection, given God’s knowledge is not the cause of human choices and the ensuing actions.

So you believe God is responsible for some objectively bad things?

I certainly do believe that. Logically speaking, if God is responsible for everything that is not a free will choice made by a human, then God is responsible for both the good and the bad things that happen.

“Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them according to his own will.” Some Answered Questions, p. 248

Man is compelled to endure them because God set it up that way since we live in a material world where some of the bad things happen are beyond our control. That is our fate, for which God is responsible.

Can God observe himself? If he can, God can be observed and is therefore theoretically within the scope of science. Whether there are any beings capable of actually applying it is a different point, and not the one you appear to be making.

It does not make logical sense to me to say that just because God can observe Himself that means God could be observed by humans and thus God is theoretically within the scope of science. Of course God can observe Himself but nobody has ever observed God and nobody ever will.

According to the definition of science I cited above - the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment – God can never be within the scope of science because God does not exist in the physical and natural world; rather God exists in the spiritual world, what some call heaven.

 

[Sheldon]

Books are where we get information. How else could we ever know if there is a deity?

From the deity, obviously.

The deity does not write books

Where did I suggest it wrote books? Many theists, yourself included, claim a deity has revealed itself to people, if it can reveal itself to one human it can reveal itself to anyone or everyone.

Thus the answer to your question, "Books are where we get information. How else could we ever know if there is a deity?" is from the deity itself.

 

[We Never Know]

Where did I suggest it wrote books? Many theists, yourself included, claim a deity has revealed itself to people, if it can reveal itself to one human it can reveal itself to anyone or everyone.

Thus the answer to your question, "Books are where we get information. How else could we ever know if there is a deity?" is from the deity itself.

Why do you use so much energy arguing about a diety you don't believe in?

 

[HonestJoe]

I will start with definitions and then apply them to way I was talking about before.

They aren't your definitions, you're just echoing what you're been told. You really need your own definitions, certainly ones you understand, since you need to take the next step of explaining exactly how the things you describe can be "beyond" science and logic.

Also, you quoted a definition of logical rather than logic, which is significantly different.

When I said that the Essence of God is beyond logic I meant that it is not subject to the rules of logic and it is not based upon facts, because it cannot ever be known.

Yes, so you keep repeating, but you've still not made any attempt to explain how and why they are and how you could possible know this.

According to scripture...

Again, your faith isn't relevant here. If you simply want to state what you believe that is fine, but if you want to assert that there is anything to support that belief, simply quoting scripture as if it is definitive truth won't cut it.

God knows exactly what we would all choose to do because God is omniscient, but what God knows is not what causes us to do anything.

Can you please stop repeating this canard since it isn't what I'm saying. Gods omniscience would mean he knows what we will choose, his omnipotence is why he is also responsible for those consequences. God causes everything with the full knowledge of what the consequences will be of those creations (which would include humans and everything we all go on to do).

I guess you are referring to an omniscient (all-knowing) being, not an omnipotent (all-powerful) being?

No. I was breaking my logic in to separate points, one leading on to the other.

1) If anything can exist with omniscience, everything must be predetermined. That is a general point regardless of the existence of any specific God.

2) If a specific creator God exists as both omniscient and omnipotent, everything must be predetermined and that God must be responsible for everything.

I do not really see any contradictions between what I believe about the omnipotent/omniscient God and science. My religion teaches that anything that contradicts science is superstition.

Unless it is something you want to believe, in which case it is declare to be "beyond science".

I certainly do believe that.

Then I can't understand why you would worship a God who does bad things that he doesn't need to. Believing it exists would be one thing but following the religion based upon that feels flawed.

It does not make logical sense to me to say that just because God can observe Himself that means God could be observed by humans and thus God is theoretically within the scope of science.

Yet again, not necessarily by humans. Science does not require humans, it just requires someone or something capable of observation and thought.

 

[Trailblazer]

Where did I suggest it wrote books? Many theists, yourself included, claim a deity has revealed itself to people, if it can reveal itself to one human it can reveal itself to anyone or everyone.

Thus the answer to your question, "Books are where we get information. How else could we ever know if there is a deity?" is from the deity itself.

Nobody can know the deity from itself unless the deity chooses to reveal itself to that person.

The deity could reveal itself to everyone, but only if it chose to do so, since an omnipotent deity only does what it chooses to do.

The omnipotent deity does whatever it pleases and does nothing it does not choose to do. This is what atheists do not understand. Atheists think omnipotent means that the deity can do anything, which really means God should be doing everything they expect Him to do. They do not understand what omnipotence really means. It means that the deity can do anything but the deity only does what the deity chooses to do.

“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.” Gleanings, p. 209

 

[Sheldon]

Why do you use so much energy arguing about a diety you don't believe in?

I don't expend much energy at all, and it would be asinine indeed to argue against something I believed was true.

 

[Sheldon]

The deity could reveal itself to everyone, but only if it chose to do so

Thus the answer to your question, "Books are where we get information. How else could we ever know if there is a deity?" is from the deity itself, as I said.