Atheists: If God existed would God……

[Trailblazer]

OK, which facts convinced you that the Baha'i faith is correct? While I might agree with many of its goals, that alone doesn't mean it is correct.

All the facts. It was all the facts that convinced me it was true, as well as books I read about the mission of Baha'u'llah and what He wrote.

But that question is about whether I like their views, and not whether they are messengers, right?

No, it is not about whether you like their views, it is about who they were as people (their character) and what they did on their alleged mission, if they claimed to be on a mission from God. If they did not claim that then they would not be Messengers of God.

Yes, it was cursory. But what I saw had an incredibly small signal to noise ratio: all sorts of rather meaningless claims about the specialness of the religion and nothing to actually support the claim that it is correct.

But the support of the claims is contained in everything that you read, not just a few things that you selected to read. Were I deciding whether or not to become a Christian I would read the entire Bible, not just a few verses or one chapter.

Sure. I would also like to see why you think the list is necessary and sufficient.

The list is not sufficient to determine if a man was a Messenger of God or not, but it is a starting point.

Please bear in mind that the following criteria are my criteria which is based upon who I believe were Messengers of God, who met all these criteria. My criteria narrow the playing field and it will eliminate false claimants, since they will fail to meet all the criteria.

The minimum criteria would be:

1. He had good character as exemplified by his qualities such as love, mercy, kindness, truth, justice, benevolence, gracious, merciful, righteous, forgiving, patient.

2. He believed he had been given a mission by God and did everything he could to see that it was carried out. He was completely successful before his death, and he accomplished everything that he set out to do.

3. He wrote much about God and God's purpose for humans both individually and collectively, or scriptures were written by others who spoke for him. He firmly believed that the work he was doing was for the Cause of God.

4. He had many followers while he was alive, and there are still millions who follow his teachings and gather in groups based on the religion he founded.

5. His followers have grown more numerous in recent times.

This is a starting point but there are other questions we would want to ask ourselves before we would be able to believe that a man was a true Messenger of God because that is a bold claim so there should be a lot of evidence to support such a claim.

Upon cursory glance, it looks like most mystical writings: a lot of rather meaningless babble and a few general claims that are trivial. pretty much what I expect from a man-made religion.

What would you expect to see from a God-made religion?

There is a lot more to the Baha'i Faith than just the Writings of Baha'u'llah. I did not even understand all that mystical stuff when I first became a Baha'i and not for decades after that, and I still do not understand some of those Writings. When I was investigating the Baha'i Faith, I read the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha. One of my first books was Bahá’í World Faith.

I also read an introduction to the Baha'i Faith entitled Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era in order to understand what the Baha'i Faith was all about. The fully downloadable version is here Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era.

 

[nPeace]

Yeah, if he is who he says he is, he is the return of Christ. Do you think he is?

Not according to what I read from scripture - the Bible. He isn't.

 

[CG Didymus]

No problem.
I used a comparison - pollution, to help you see that just as pollution is not created by any god, but rather, is caused. Disease does not have to be created by any god, but rather, is caused.
It's the effect of a cause. The cause does not have to be God. In fact, common sense reasoning will help us to see that it can't be God... and it's not.
We just have to look at the creation, to see that.
That's it in a nutshell. Let me know if you need a more thorough explanation.

Thanks for being humble enough, to ask. That's a good attitude to have.

Yeah, right back at you. It sounded like you were getting a little miffed at some of us. But don't you think bacteria, viruses, and parasites were created?

 

[ppp]

Yeah, the Baha'i "tribe" is all people. They have a slogan, "The Earth is but on country and mankind its citizens." There's a lot to like about the Baha'i Faith. They have people of all races and religions that have come together as Baha'is. I just don't believe everything they say. And I certainly wouldn't want them or any other religion to have enough power to force their rules and laws and moral codes on everybody.

I agree. There is a lot that is admirable in their religion. But I cannot abide:

1. claims of infallibility,
2. casuistry,
3. a "but we're different" view of theocracy,
4. and a goal of world assimilation.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, they existed, were human, and made rather outrageous claims.

Yes, they were bold claims and I am sure they sound outrageous, but what if they are true claims?
The only way you can determine that is by research and investigation. Of course not everyone will come to the same conclusions but given the gravity of the claims I think it is worth a fair shake.

Baha’u’llah’s Two Bold Claims

All of which leads us back to Baha’u’llah, who made two very bold claims. First, he declared he was God’s messenger for the next one thousand years, having the same divine authority, the same Holy Spirit, the same divine power, as Moses, Christ, Muhammad, and the other founders of the major world religions:

In the East the light of [God’s] Revelation hath broken; in the West have appeared the signs of His dominion. Ponder this in your hearts, O people, and be not of those who have turned a deaf ear to the admonitions of Him Who is the Almighty, the All-Praised. Let the Breeze of God awaken you. Verily, it hath wafted over the world. Well is it with him that hath discovered the fragrance thereof and been accounted among the well-assured. – Baha’u’llah, Tablets of Baha’u’llah.

This station, by itself, makes the Baha’i Faith the youngest of the major world religions.

Baha’u’llah made a second and even more challenging claim. He declared he was the promised world messiah foretold in all the prophecies, in all the holy books, of all the religions of the world – the one promised to come on the Day of Judgment, the Day of God, the Time of the End, the End of the World, to establish the kingdom of God on Earth.

Baha’u’llah declared this period in history as the Day of God, the Time of the End. His mission is nothing less than the establishment of this glorious kingdom – the unification of the entire human race into an all-embracing, spiritually mature world civilization based upon divine principles of justice and love, and whose watchword will be unity in diversity.

With this second claim, Baha’is believe that all of the religions of the world have been consummated and fulfilled with the coming of Baha’u’llah.

https://bahaiteachings.org/what-did-bahaullah-teach?

 

[ppp]

Prescribed sets of belief, loyalty to a group, shared values, defines tribalism. Over the top religions offer promises of truth, world peace, and an afterlife.

Okay. I will buy that definition of tribalist. Though I generally think of tribalist as being some level of exclusionist. Or at least difficult to penetrate. Like Judaism. You can convert to do Judaism but The petitioner has to go through hurdles to get let in. Whereas Christianity and Baha'i are theologically promiscuous.

 

[lukethethird]

Yeah, the Baha'i "tribe" is all people. They have a slogan, "The Earth is but on country and mankind its citizens." There's a lot to like about the Baha'i Faith. They have people of all races and religions that have come together as Baha'is. I just don't believe everything they say. And I certainly wouldn't want them or any other religion to have enough power to force their rules and laws and moral codes on everybody.

Any religion that promises world peace is a relligion I would stay away from. Putting people in jail at a higher rate is not my idea of world peace.

 

[Polymath257]

It was not mostly what He said, it is who He was and what He did.

Which cannot prove that anything he said was valid. It also cannot show that he was a messenger of God.

All that is delineated in the history of the Baha'i Faith.

OK, and other religions have other statements that people believe. I think they are all wrong.

Of course not. Claims are not evidence of anything.

And what *is* the evidence? You know, a piece of information that makes a view more or less likely.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Belief in prescribed sets of faith based beliefs is primitive...

If that is true, then I prefer to be with primitive people.

Educated "primitive people", that is.

 

[nPeace]

Again, do you believe that Baha'u'llah is the return of Christ? Unless you're a very liberal Christian, the Baha'i Faith doesn't see things the way you do. Assuming that either Christianity or the Baha'i Faith is true, then one of you is very blind to the truth about God.

Correct. Jesus and his followers said as much, nearly 2000 years ago.

Spoiler

(2 Corinthians 4:3, 4) If, in fact, the good news we declare is veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, 4 among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.

(Matthew 15:12-14) 12 Then the disciples came and said to him: “Do you know that the Pharisees were stumbled at hearing what you said?” 13 In reply he said: “Every plant that my heavenly Father did not plant will be uprooted. 14 Let them be. Blind guides is what they are. If, then, a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit.”

(Matthew 23:16-26) 16 “Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it is nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is under obligation.’ 17 Fools and blind ones! Which, in fact, is greater, the gold or the temple that has sanctified the gold? 18 Moreover, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it is nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is under obligation.’ 19 Blind ones! Which, in fact, is greater, the gift or the altar that sanctifies the gift? 20 Therefore, whoever swears by the altar is swearing by it and by all the things on it; 21 and whoever swears by the temple is swearing by it and by the One inhabiting it; 22 and whoever swears by heaven is swearing by the throne of God and by the One sitting on it. 23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you give the tenth of the mint and the dill and the cumin, but you have disregarded the weightier matters of the Law, namely, justice and mercy and faithfulness. These things it was necessary to do, yet not to disregard the other things. 24 Blind guides, who strain out the gnat but gulp down the camel! 25 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you cleanse the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of greediness and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee, cleanse first the inside of the cup and of the dish, so that the outside of it may also become clean.

I'm really hoping you have a good reason for focusing on that though. If scientist who believe A are correct, then scientists who believe B, C, D... X, Y, Z, are blind to the truth about reality.
So what's the benefit of focusing on that argument, I'm wondering?

 

[Polymath257]

Yes, they were bold claims and I am sure they sound outrageous, but what if they are true claims?
The only way you can determine that is by research and investigation. Of course not everyone will come to the same conclusions but given the gravity of the claims I think it is worth a fair shake.

Baha’u’llah’s Two Bold Claims

All of which leads us back to Baha’u’llah, who made two very bold claims. First, he declared he was God’s messenger for the next one thousand years, having the same divine authority, the same Holy Spirit, the same divine power, as Moses, Christ, Muhammad, and the other founders of the major world religions:

And since I don't find any of them to have any authority, I can even agree with this statement. He had exactly the same authority: none.

In the East the light of [God’s] Revelation hath broken; in the West have appeared the signs of His dominion. Ponder this in your hearts, O people, and be not of those who have turned a deaf ear to the admonitions of Him Who is the Almighty, the All-Praised. Let the Breeze of God awaken you. Verily, it hath wafted over the world. Well is it with him that hath discovered the fragrance thereof and been accounted among the well-assured. – Baha’u’llah, Tablets of Baha’u’llah.

This station, by itself, makes the Baha’i Faith the youngest of the major world religions.

Although Mormons are close.

Baha’u’llah made a second and even more challenging claim. He declared he was the promised world messiah foretold in all the prophecies, in all the holy books, of all the religions of the world – the one promised to come on the Day of Judgment, the Day of God, the Time of the End, the End of the World, to establish the kingdom of God on Earth.

Baha’u’llah declared this period in history as the Day of God, the Time of the End. His mission is nothing less than the establishment of this glorious kingdom – the unification of the entire human race into an all-embracing, spiritually mature world civilization based upon divine principles of justice and love, and whose watchword will be unity in diversity.

With this second claim, Baha’is believe that all of the religions of the world have been consummated and fulfilled with the coming of Baha’u’llah.

https://bahaiteachings.org/what-did-bahaullah-teach?

OK, I don't find that compelling at all. In fact, it sounds like pretty much any corner shyster.

 

[CG Didymus]

I agree. There is a lot that is admirable in their religion. But I cannot abide:

1. claims of infallibility,
2. casuistry,
3. a "but we're different" view of theocracy,
4. and a goal of world assimilation.

That's why I'm here questioning Baha'is. They could be for real, or they might not. The proof might be on its way. They predict things will get worse and worse until the people, what's left of them, have no choice but to turn to the Baha'i Faith. But... the Christians are saying the same thing... Armageddon is on its way. With the Christians, though, Jesus is the one returning, and it is after the tribulations. With the Baha'is, things were bad, their promised one came and went, and because the world essentially rejected him, things are getting worse.

One Jesus quote I throw at Baha'is all the time is that there will be wars and rumors of wars but that is not yet the end. Of course, they don't believe things in the Bible that contradict their beliefs, so they kind of ignore it.

 

[CG Didymus]

Correct. Jesus and his followers said as much, nearly 2000 years ago.

Spoiler

(2 Corinthians 4:3, 4) If, in fact, the good news we declare is veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, 4 among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.

(Matthew 15:12-14) 12 Then the disciples came and said to him: “Do you know that the Pharisees were stumbled at hearing what you said?” 13 In reply he said: “Every plant that my heavenly Father did not plant will be uprooted. 14 Let them be. Blind guides is what they are. If, then, a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit.”

(Matthew 23:16-26) 16 “Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it is nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is under obligation.’ 17 Fools and blind ones! Which, in fact, is greater, the gold or the temple that has sanctified the gold? 18 Moreover, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it is nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is under obligation.’ 19 Blind ones! Which, in fact, is greater, the gift or the altar that sanctifies the gift? 20 Therefore, whoever swears by the altar is swearing by it and by all the things on it; 21 and whoever swears by the temple is swearing by it and by the One inhabiting it; 22 and whoever swears by heaven is swearing by the throne of God and by the One sitting on it. 23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you give the tenth of the mint and the dill and the cumin, but you have disregarded the weightier matters of the Law, namely, justice and mercy and faithfulness. These things it was necessary to do, yet not to disregard the other things. 24 Blind guides, who strain out the gnat but gulp down the camel! 25 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you cleanse the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of greediness and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee, cleanse first the inside of the cup and of the dish, so that the outside of it may also become clean.

I'm really hoping you have a good reason for focusing on that though. If scientist who believe A are correct, then scientists who believe B, C, D... X, Y, Z, are blind to the truth about reality.
So what's the benefit of focusing on that argument, I'm wondering?

It just seemed like you were siding with the Baha'is. I have said it a few times, that I think in many ways Baha'is have more in common with Atheists, than Christians. They don't take the Bible literally but make several things symbolic, including Satan and hell and the resurrection of Jesus.

 

[Sheldon]

It is useful to remember the wonder and magnitude of this mystery.

That seems like just an assumption.

And that it has a transcendent nature (and thereby a divine nature). These are complicated ideas and "God" is as good a term to use to represent it as any.

Now you're definitely just reeling off unevidenced assumptions in tandem.

 

[nPeace]

Yeah, right back at you. It sounded like you were getting a little miffed at some of us. But don't you think bacteria, viruses, and parasites were created?

I am only stating facts. Sorry if they are not readily accepted, but I can't be blamed for that, can I?
I just asked you to reread, in the hope that reading it again, you would realize what you missed. Is that a bad thing, do you think, or would that not be helpful?
I like when people do that to me, so that I do more than read the words, but rather, try to understand.

I only try to be helpful. I teach, so it's a habit. Sorry if it seems harsh. I am not trying to torture... as many young ones think teachers do.

Whatever is alive, did not come from nothing. They didn't spawn from thin air.
According to the Bible, God made life. That includes all living things - including bacteria.
However, all living things can adapt, so that what may once be useful, and beneficial, can also be dangerous and harmful in another 'form', or environment.

Is that clear, or would you like a more indepth explanation?

 

[nPeace]

It just seemed like you were siding with the Baha'is. I have said it a few times, that I think in many ways Baha'is have more in common with Atheists, than Christians. They don't take the Bible literally but make several things symbolic, including Satan and hell and the resurrection of Jesus.

I agree... but.... teacher's habit... You heard me before on the Bahai's position. You were in the same thread, and I spoke to you on this before.
Can I give a little suggestions.... Taking mental notes is quite useful.

 

[Trailblazer]

We should insist on testability of any ideas presented. And we should be skeptical of grand claims that cannot be proven.

I fully agree. Baha'u'llah would also have agreed because He did not expect anyone to accept His claims blindly.

“Bahá’u’lláh asked no one to accept His statements and His tokens blindly. On the contrary, He put in the very forefront of His teachings emphatic warnings against blind acceptance of authority, and urged all to open their eyes and ears, and use their own judgement, independently and fearlessly, in order to ascertain the truth. He enjoined the fullest investigation and never concealed Himself, offering, as the supreme proofs of His Prophethood, His words and works and their effects in transforming the lives and characters of men. The tests He proposed are the same as those laid down by His great predecessors. Moses said:—

When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.—Deut. xviii, 22.

Christ put His test just as plainly, and appealed to it in proof of His own claim. He said:—

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. … Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.—Matt. vii, 15–17, 20”

Proofs of Prophethood, Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era

You claim that God is a spirit being. But you present no evidence to support the idea that there are *any* spirit beings at all, let alone one that has the qualities you attribute to God.

The evidence that God exists is the Messengers who represent God. It can be logically deduced that God is not a material being because material beings only exist in the material world and we . The Bible says that God is a spirit being but we cannot understand what that means because the Essence of God is unknowable. The Essence of God is God's intrinsic nature, things such as what God is comprised of and how God functions and where God resides.

 

[Trailblazer]

Prove it.

Nobody can ever prove that God exists, except to themselves.

 

[Trailblazer]

What makes you think he actually said this? And if he did, what makes you think he was talking about morality and not something else?

I do not know if Jesus actually uttered these words, nobody can know that.

I do not think that Jesus was referring specifically to morality but rather He was speaking generally of the many things that people could not bear to hear back in those days.

John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Baha'u'llah was the Spirit of truth because He guided us into all truth and He glorified Jesus. He did not speak of Himself, He only spoke what He heard from the Holy Spirit. It was the Holy Spirit speaking through Baha'u'llah that taught us all things, not the man.

 

[Trailblazer]

But other theists do. I agree with you, by the way. But I also would say the same about any other religious texts.

The difference between the Baha'i Faith and the Bible is that Baha'u'llah did not anthropomorphize God.You would realize that if you ever read any of His Writings about God.
I cannot speak about the other religious texts since I am not familiar with them.