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Atheists: If God existed would God……

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Well clearly... You are wrong. So you have run off track, once again, because you "know so much".


The post is right there. I quoted you word for word.
I wonder what you hope to accomplish with this ostrich style denial.

People who think they know everything, are not willing to accept that they may be wrong, or that they make mistakes. That's the sad reality of pride... and then the next best thing you do, is start making false accusations of the person's character - personal attacks.

Responding to the content of posts, is the opposite of personal attacks.
I didn't personally attack you at all. I just responded to what you said.

I won't report you though

For what? Responding to posts? :rolleyes:


I let people of your type

People of "my type"? Now who's on the track of personal attacks? :rolleyes:

carry on thinking they are right... and continue looking down their nose.

I note that you still haven't bothered to clarify what you actually meant, if you didn't meant what the post actually said.

:rolleyes:

As a reminder, your post flat out literally stated that human behavior and activity was the cause of disease and genetic defects and alike.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Sorry it doesn't work that way.

It does.

I have no burden because I am not making any claims.

I just explained to you how that isn't true.

Atheists are the ones who have the burden of proof to prove to themselves that God exists IF THEY WANT TO KNOW.

No.
You should really learn how the burden of proof works.

Theists can lead you to the watering hole but we cannot make you drink.

The problem is that the supposed watering hole is undetectable and magical. It's indistinguishable from a non-existing watering hole. Kind of hard to drink from a watering hole that can't be distinguished from one that doesn't exist.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
They certainly do hold up, according to all the definitions of evidence..

Evidence: anything that helps to prove that something is or is not true: EVIDENCE | definition in the Cambridge English Dictionary

Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid: https://www.google.com/search

Evidence is anything that you see, experience, read, or are told that causes you to believe that something is true or has really happened.

And your "evidence" doesn't fit these definitions.
Your "evidence" consists of anecdotes, claims and hearsay.
There's nothing verifiable there.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
No problem.
I used a comparison - pollution, to help you see that just as pollution is not created by any god, but rather, is caused. Disease does not have to be created by any god, but rather, is caused.
It's the effect of a cause. The cause does not have to be God. In fact, common sense reasoning will help us to see that it can't be God... and it's not.
We just have to look at the creation, to see that.
That's it in a nutshell. Let me know if you need a more thorough explanation.

You didn't explain anything.
You just repeated your bare denial claim.

What was the cause of cancers and germ based disease before humans existed?
And how was the allmighty creator of everything not involved in that?

Thanks for being humble enough, to ask. That's a good attitude to have.

I asked you every time and instead of answers all I got was personal attacks and irrational defense shields.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Atheists: If God existed would God do #1 or #2, as noted below?

These are two separate questions.

1. If God existed would God communicate directly to everyone?
2. If God existed would God prove that He exists to everyone?

I am not asking if God could communicate directly to everyone or prove that He exists to everyone.
I am not asking if God should communicate directly to everyone or prove that He exists to everyone.

I am asking if God would God communicate directly to everyone or prove that He exists to everyone IF GOD EXISTED.

If you answer yes, please explain why you answered yes.
If you answer no, please explain why you answered no.

Thanks, Trailblazer :)
The answers depend entirely on god's intentions.

So, what are this particular version of god's intentions?
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
I do not think it is impossible to answer. All we have to do is ask if God has proven that He exists to everyone or if God has communicated directly to everyone. If the answer is "no" that means that God would not do that if God existed. (Why God would not do that is another conversation.)
Ah, you are asking if the god that you believe exists has communicated with everyone or proved his existence to everyone, or not.
Well, the answer is clearly "no, he has not".

The next question is therefore clearly, "why hasn't he?"
The answer is either because he doesn't want to, or he cannot.

If he cannot, then he isn't god.
If he doesn't want to, why not?

If there are no consequences for not believing in him, it's not an issue.
However, if there are consequences then why doesn't he want to communicate with or prove his existence to everyone? Why does he only select a few people?
 

Daniel Nicholson

Blasphemous Pryme
Sorry, there is no such evidence because God wants us to have faith in His Messenger, faith that is based upon the evidence the Messenger provided.
Well how convenient for the Messanger. This doesn't make you suspicious at all?

God rewards those who earnestly seek Him through the Messenger but God will not force anyone to accept the evidence.
How does God reward them?
Am I denied this because I am skeptical of the evidence and guarded against false prophets?
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Then how do you think it works?

It is evidence either way. If it is evidence and the conclusion is true, then it is evidence even if the conclusion is false. The truth or falsity of the conclusion doens't affect whether something is evidence.

No, that is not what happened and you do not know what happened to me. I *believed* it was evidence. You don't believe it is evidence. The right thing to do is to agree to disagree, not to speak for other people.

Typically, I believe because I was convinced. So if I believe it was evidence, I was convinced it was evidence. And that means that there is some reason to think it is evidence. Otherwise, I have simply convinced myself that it is evidence.

I had no interest in it being evidence because I was not searching for God or a religion.

How is that relevant? it is evidence whether or not you are searching. And somehow you became convinced it *is/was* evidence.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
The attack is how you are told that your answers are insufficiently accurate, including inconsistency, poor definitions, logical fallacies, evasion, etc. I understand you don't like the criticisms, but that is part of religious debate.

That isn't an attack. That is part of ordinary debate. The best response is to actually give the evidence and support your claims with more information. In sufficient accuracy, inconsistency, poor definitions, logical fallacies, and evasion are ALL valid criticism when they occur.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I try to use logic to get my points across

Logic is prescribed, constrained by strict rules called valid rules of inference, other inferences being called fallacy, or logical error. One can learn these rules and become competent at constructing sound arguments to the exclusion of fallacy. Another skill learned when developing critical thinking skills is determining the significance of a fact or finding (evidence). A third skill is being able to evaluate the arguments of others to determine if they are valid and their conclusions sound or not, as when evidence is misinterpreted or invalid arguments offered.

What you're being told over and over in this thread is that what you call evidence that a messenger was sent by a deity does not support that conclusion, and therefore is not evidence of what you say it is. They are also telling you where your reasoning is fallacious. They are hoping to convince you of this by explaining in what way you deviated from the laws of reason and evidence interpretation under the assumption that you would want to know if you had made an error and come to an unsound conclusion, but by now, it is apparent that that is not a realistic expectation.

The problem is that since you cannot construct an argument soundly or evaluate an argument critically, there is no little hope of convincing you by showing you your error if you can't see fallacy. They require you to participate at that level - kind of a Catch 22 that one needs somebody to be a sound thinker to show them that they are committing errors in their reasoning. And so, the thread is at an impasse.

The unanswered question for me and I expect some others is whether you did what most faith-based thinkers do, which is to choose to believe an insufficiently supported belief and then retrofit it with something that you call evidence despite it not being used to arrive at that belief, or whether you were actually convince by what you call evidence. It hardly matters, because the result is the same. If the latter is the case, your belief is actually a conclusion however unsound. If it is the former, the commoner case, then what is being done is offering a premise as a conclusion, or what I call a pseudo-conclusion, since it preceded the evidence and thus is not derived from it as an actual conclusion is, however soundly or unsoundly.

I believe (but I do not know) that God wants everyone to know that He exists but my belief is not derived from scriptures so it is just a personal opinion. It is just as possible that God does not want everyone to know that He exists, and it is even possible that God does not care if anyone knows that He exists.

Critical thinking doesn't allow for unsupported belief. But you are being honest here that you have no reason to believe what you do. This time, you didn't claim t have evidence or reason to support your belief. There is no argument possible there. All one can say is that he doesn't think that way or accept that belief himself.

When I said ” I do not believe that God ever wants to be known as an objective fact” that was based upon deductive reasoning; since God has not proven to humans that He exists as an objective fact, I concluded that He does not want to be known that way.

Your conclusion is unsound. You didn't consider the other possibilities for why so many people are unconvinced that this deity exists, including that it doesn't. The proper analysis for the why evidence that would convince a critical thinker that a deity exists is lacking is that this god doesn't exist, it is unaware we exist, it is indifferent to our existence, or that it is unwilling or unable to make itself known. That's deduction. These are all logically sound positions, none of which can be ruled in or out. What you did was jump to your preferred explanation, generating a non sequitur - a conclusion that does not follow from what preceded it, also called an unsound conclusion. You ruled them all out but the one you prefer to believe is true.

It's one thing to say that this is what you have chosen to believe and not try to defend those beliefs. No critical thinker will argue with a faith-based belief. He will tell you that he doesn't believe it himself, and that by his means of evaluating truth claims, that your belief is unjustified. If you call your belief faith-based, you are saying that you don't require justification to believe. Once again, what's there to disagree about? OK, you don't, I do.

But when you make claims such as that you use logic including deductive reasoning, and that you have evidence to support your beliefs, they tell you that you are wrong. They respect those skills enough to not let somebody who makes logical errors call them logical thinking. It's not, and there is a duty to correct such errors, just as many consider it a duty to label Covid misinformation error in social media with a label, or in televised congressional hearings when a Senator gives misinformation with a rebuttal from a expert.

If you value truth and agree that critical thinking is the path to that, you speak out for the benefit of others who also value truth, but might not be able to identify the misinformation or logical error as such without help. These would probably be younger people, since older people with those values will have developed those skills, and older people lacking them don't find value in them, and so, nothing a critical thinker would say would have any impact on them.

It's interesting when people who are unskilled at these principles give homage to them by insisting that they use them, but are indifferent to a chorus of experienced critical thinkers telling them that they are not using them properly. How are we to understand that? Do they really respect reason? If so, why aren't they going to more skilled reasoners for guidance? Are they really indifferent to it, but trying to legitimize their positions with those that are not by claiming it? If one doesn't respect reason, if he considers faith a legitimate path to truth, why not proudly announce that that is the path you took?
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
More broad brush judgments about theist behaviors, judgments that you say you do not make. It is constant, and it mainly comes from you, not the other atheists. Why do you have to knock theists down in order to make your points? That is a question only you can answer.
We have debate rules on this site. There are rules of logic. These rules govern behavior. When debaters violate rules the behavior is called out. It's not personal, it's just an observation and sometimes a judgment.

That I often point out patterns of behavior in debate is not a "knock to theists", it's just making observations and pointing them out. The patterns of behavior you do is typically examples of logical fallacies, and these are also pointed out. I understand you don't like this. But this is part of the community interaction of debate forums. The reason we criticize your comments and patterns of behavior is to help you understand the problems of your thinking and belief. That you keep pushing back and repeating the behaviors illustrate you want to keep the dialog open.

I do not like them? You read me totally wrong. Everything you say about me is like water off a duck's back since I know it is not true.
I think you are getting used to the criticisms, and you are learning to repeat yourself in different ways.

I am not in a debate with you or any other atheists. I am just trying to have friendly discussions.
It is impossible to have a discussion with you because of your relentless criticisms.
Debate, discussion, these are the same thing with a distinction. Either way you make your comments and ask your questions, and we give feedback and answer them. You don't like the answers and criticisms that do not align with your beliefs.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
That isn't an attack. That is part of ordinary debate.
Right. I should have written "attack" since what she perceives as an attack is just rebuttal and criticism. Notice you criticized my post. Did I get defensive and insulting? No, I acknowledged you had a good point.

The best response is to actually give the evidence and support your claims with more information. In sufficient accuracy, inconsistency, poor definitions, logical fallacies, and evasion are ALL valid criticism when they occur.
Indeed. It gets tedious when fair criticisms are met with denial. Then denial is added to the list of criticisms.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
No, it is not circular reasoning because the fruits are not the Prophet. The fruits are how you know if a Prophet is a true Prophet.
And this test MUST be very high, like there being predictions that are clear, and also very, very specific.

Vague predictions as we see in the Bible are weak and very subjective. You have certainly not presented any texts that demonstrate any Baha'i text is a viable prediction. No fruit. Not even blooms on those trees.

Would it be circular reasoning if you said you are voting for a candidate for president who had a good track record? How else would you know that he would make a good president?
No, circular reasoning would be:

I'm voting for trump because he says he will be the greatest president in history, therefore trump will be the greatest president in history.
See how it works, the conclusion is part of the claim itself. Like, the Bible is true because it says it is true. Jim is telling the truth because Jim says he always tells the truth.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Logic is prescribed, constrained by strict rules called valid rules of inference, other inferences being called fallacy, or logical error. One can learn these rules and become competent at constructing sound arguments to the exclusion of fallacy. Another skill learned when developing critical thinking skills is determining the significance of a fact or finding (evidence). A third skill is being able to evaluate the arguments of others to determine if they are valid and their conclusions sound or not, as when evidence is misinterpreted or invalid arguments offered.
Another tool is being able to reflect on our own biases, which we all have, but some struggle with more than others. I see some folks construct what appear to be valid, logical arguments but suffer from the blindspot of bias, and these folks just can't even see their bias. Self-reflection is critical to being able to apply logic to idea that are close to our hearts and egos.
 
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