Atheists: If God existed would God… (Continued)

[Trailblazer]

You seem to understand my doubts about god. You can handle them and have faith, I can't and assume he does not exist

Are your doubts about God because of the suffering or because of the lack of evidence for God?
Most atheists tell me they are atheists because they believe there is no evidence for God's existence, not because of the suffering.

 

[Trailblazer]

If you don't like the word "justification," feel free to replace it with whatever you think you're doing with this thread.

Justification is the right word. It just does not apply since God requires no justification for anything he does. Iows, God does not have to justify what He does or does not do to humans since God is not accountable to humans.

I started this thread to continue my discussion with @HonestJoe but apparently he does not want to continue that discussion so I will discuss whatever people want to discuss on this thread.

Right: since positive life experiences can grow one's character, trying to justify negative experiences on the basis of character growth doesn't work.

I am not trying to justify suffering. Suffering simply exists, and I don't think that we can know why some people suffer so much more than others.

I suppose if a study was done on people who suffer much vs. those who suffer little we could see which one leads to more character growth. Perhaps such studies have been done, I don't know.

Do you think that God was powerless to prevent suffering?.

No, I don't think so, but why would God prevent suffering, given God created a world that has suffering in it, knowing that people would suffer?

 

[Altfish]

Are your doubts about God because of the suffering or because of the lack of evidence for God?
Most atheists tell me they are atheists because they believe there is no evidence for God's existence, not because of the suffering.

No, no suffering, just lack of evidence

 

[ChristineM]

I never said that all suffering is advantageous

You did not qualify but contrary to your denial you did say...

...since suffering is advantageous for our spiritual growth.​

That depends what you mean by nature. I think we are talking at cross purposes.

O am sure we are. But any human can change, habits can be broken and human nature comprises many habits.

Foreknowledge is not the cause of anything

It is foreknowledge, knowing it will happen.

The fact that God knows what is going to happen is not what causes it to happen.

It is said that god created... If he knew what his creation was to do (the good old omni again) then he created the future.

Atheists do the opposite, which is also illogical; they look at only the bad things and blame God for those, never giving God any credit for the good things He created.

Bull poop. Atheists simply point out the hypocrisy of a theist praising god for the good and denying gods responsibility for the bad. I am sure ive mentioned this before. An atheist blaming a god is like blaming harry potter

 

[Trailblazer]

The reason atheists don't give God credit for the joy is that it is irrelevant to our position. The reason you might perceive it like that, and that atheists seem to only focus on the bad part, is because those are where the clearest conflict exists, between the claims being made about God and the actual actions taken by God according to scriptures.

You are correct in saying that the joy is irrelevant to the atheist position and that the reason atheists seem to only focus on the bad part is because that is where the clearest conflict exists, between the claims being made about God and the actual actions taken by God according to scriptures.

For an atheist, it wouldn't make sense to give credit to God for the joy in the world, more than giving Odin the credit. Just as we wouldn't give God the blame for the suffering either. Again, the atheist position is that of claims made about God vs scriptures and what we can observe in reality, meaning something which we have good reason to assume is true.

I certainly do recognize that there is a discrepancy between the claims being made about God in the scriptures and what we actually see in the world. One way that can be reconciled is by realizing that humans are responsible for much of the suffering in the world but that still does not explain the suffering that comes upon people through no fault of their own (e.g. accidents, injuries, diseases, natural disasters, etc.) It does not seem to me that a loving God would create a world that has the kinds of suffering that come upon people through no fault of their own, since it does not seem fair and just, and I am not going to offer any religious apologetics in an attempt to explain it away, as most theists do. I will simply say I don't know why and leave it at that.

 

[Trailblazer]

You did not qualify but contrary to your denial you did say...

...since suffering is advantageous for our spiritual growth.​

I qualified that later.
#14 Trailblazer

It is said that god created... If he knew what his creation was to do (the good old omni again) then he created the future.

God knows the future but God's knowledge does not create the future. All that God did was create the world.
What creates the future are the actions of men.

Bull poop. Atheists simply point out the hypocrisy of a theist praising god for the good and denying gods responsibility for the bad. I am sure ive mentioned this before. An atheist blaming a god is like blaming harry potter

You are preaching to the choir.....I also pointed that hypocrisy in a thread i started a while ago:
Questions that believers cannot answer

 

[ChristineM]

I qualified that later.

I answered long before you changed tack

God knows the future

I think she has it..?

You are preaching to the choir

So why say atheists blame god for...?

 

[stvdv]

but

that is not a problem of logic, as suffering, even if there is a loving God, is neither logical nor illogical

it simply exists.

As simple as that

 

[samtonga43]

Hypothetically speaking, an all-powerful God has the power to do anything, but I am not God so I cannot know what God can or can’t do. Only God knows that.

Let's check the logical progression here:--
1. God has the power to do anything.
2. God can do anything,
∴ We know that there is nothing He cannot do.

 

[samtonga43]

I do not need to justify how God created the world. God requires no justifications from humans.

I cannot demonstrate that the benefits that come from suffering are necessary or that the only way that benefit can be achieved is through suffering. I believe suffering has the potential to build character if we can learn and grow from it but there are a lot of people who have not suffered much who have a good character. People can also learn and grow character through positive life experiences.

I do not justify suffering because it requires no justification, it simply exists. People suffer more or less and I believe that is more by fate than by a free will choices they make. Since I believe God is responsible for fate, God is left holding the bag for the suffering that was not chosen.

Can you explain what you mean by "God is responsible for fate"?

 

[samtonga43]

Foreknowledge is not the cause of anything. The fact that God knows what is going to happen is not what causes it to happen.

Nobody said that foreknowledge is the cause of anything.
ChristineM said, "The claim is god created all with foreknowledge". This does not mean that foreknowledge is the cause.

 

[CG Didymus]

I won't go through the whole OP but have comments on a couple of points



Tell me how childhood leukemia is advantageous to spiritual growth?
How is a natural disaster (also known as an act of god) that kills tens of thousands of people advantageous to spiritual growth?



Claimed omni everything so if a god is unable to change nature then obviously not omni self. Even lowly hunans have been known to change.



Knowing the consequences of your actions and still causing suffering, pain, hardship, death etc makes such a concept a sick and mean being unworthy of worship.

Since there are so many contradictory concepts of the Gods or the God or whatever, this one about an all-knowing, all-loving God, has its problems. An evolving Godless natural world explains a lot of the things we see happening around us much better. Some things kill and eat other things. There are bacteria and viruses that cause disease in animals and humans. And we have an immune system and can eat better and do things to make our bodies more able to fight those things off. And then we develop things that can kill them before they kill us. Now add this loving creator God into it. It's kind of hard to make this God fit. Maybe a God that isn't all-knowing and isn't all-loving? A God that was just fumbling around creating things just to see what would happen. Or, like some religion, they have good Gods and some evil ones.

 

[firedragon]

To answer your question, if God is defined as all-loving and good, what God would do is what God decides is all-loving

You know TB? Who says God is "all-loving"? Just out of curiosity.

 

[firedragon]

You did not qualify but contrary to your denial you did say...

...since suffering is advantageous for our spiritual growth.

She said that "I would say". Not as if that's her main argument. She was comparing that arbitrary statement to an atheists arbitrary statement that "suffering is bad".

 

[rational experiences]

If smart arsed healthy rich men and his cronies employ smart arsed human criminals......

Anything you believe is always a lie. First position criminals.

As God terms says one species exact each. Two of in every species. Seen observed to express the known reality as highest dominion consciousness. The human.

Sexual procreation Inherits the sin in DNA.

Meaning science knows origin DNA is already defective.

Our life body biology feels pain suffering by its created being...not when our bodies are not changed.

Is a Known medical observation.

Therefore if you quibble about why a human was body owner who feels pain and suffers ..
it's because you see it. Asides from feeling it.

Spiritually youre meant to believe yourself same human that it's not righteous. So parents try to teach self safety. Human.

As no one should be feeling pain.

Yet I could bang my leg. Instant pain felt.

So humans want to blame someone why their body was created to feel pain and suffering when it's natural bio inheritance. By terms how a body functions.

You have to own the body exact to idealise conditions it expresses. Hence it hadn't existed before you. So it's not a law.

What's not natural....greedy rich brothers. His choice by a human small community and any type of technology to be richer. Is not intelligent it's self destructive human behaviour.

You own a criminal position. It's your position that claimed self idolisation and God typification as a human.

So I ask you liar thinker why do you inflict pain and suffering yourself. Not just in society but by science changing biology by heavenly causes via machines? Knowing you caused it. Review it and want it caused.

Claiming I then own sciences contacts. When human body biology always owned why pain is felt.

Humans unnatural suffering.

So if you are with God first and you can feel pain with God. Highest self terms. You say I don't feel pain with god unless I'm caused to.

So it's not gods fault. It was your Satan science brothers fault said the testimony.

Not gods fault says a human consciousness advised. So we were taught our brother the scientist of changing God caused us to suffer. As gods natural life terms stated no suffering yet can suffer.

As you seem to forget living humans as humans being humans tell all the stories as a human.

Was a teaching.

As he cares less about mutual family rights and living conditions. Exactly advised.

As he's already advised totally about it his own self. So why keep Interviewing your family? The answers of causes by human science practiced is with which you agree.

What you won't agree with is that science of man never owned natural mass conditions in science.

If a human says the whole heavens mass kept my life safe. Why is it that greedy men tried to impose that a one of string of anything in that mass was human owned?

Truth says...as they want control in science of all the mass. To claim all contacts. Humans aren't nuclear we are stable in water mass and oxygenated mass.

Stable means not changing. As if it did no biology would even exist.

As all the mass isnt a human bio body they want it converted. The heavens mass intricate theory. To machine control it.

Why burning cooling cloud mass produced evil imagery in a partial solid. As he's trying to change earths heavens mass into a huge human angel by science causes. Claiming humans owned every type.

We only live in water oxygenated by natures body. Exact taught bio life ground position with life on gods earth the human review.

Thesis thought by humans is exact human thought intent by invention of it. As science never owned creation of anything. They force unnatural changes only.

If you ask why an entity you claim perfect in memory caused change to as a self spirit to inherit change.

It's because they never understood extra change did cause another type of change. Until change was applied unnaturally then the realisation about change existed. Destruction.

Hence to describe why it wasn't understood first ....destruction. It's because it hadn't existed first. It's not where we live exist now as everything constantly changes.

In our life it's now only a memory.

They had to have existed with change first to know change meaning three body types.

Eternal background.
The eternal being living existing.
A language spirit moving in and out of the background.

Three mutual presences changing.

You cannot blame that being for what it hadn't realised...don't force change yourself.

Inherited highest advised human life once an eternal being...never force change again as you only inherit a lower state of being. Our conscious intelligence.

Is why we know consciousness existed first before change into loss...created creation. They hadn't owned pain.

So our God is direct a humans god natural Idealised life support only. It doesn't own intention to harm. As change is what causes harm.

Therefore we don't need to argue why the God support on earth gave us the highest life human. We know we are meant to be mutual loving kind caring.

It's sciences own terms that don't produce those outcomes in science who argues with us .... so where is your God?

Well smart arse brother you removed it's origin body mass and heavens mass. Is why. And then you became even nastier than scientific thought itself.

 

[Trailblazer]

So why say atheists blame god for...?

because they do.

 

[Trailblazer]

You know TB? Who says God is "all-loving"? Just out of curiosity.

Shoghi Effendi, Abdu'l-Baha, the Bab, and Baha'u'llah.

Baha'i Reference Library: Search Results
Baha'i Reference Library: Search Results
Baha'i Reference Library: Search Results

 

[firedragon]

Shoghi Effendi, Abdu'l-Baha, the Bab, and Baha'u'llah.

Baha'i Reference Library: Search Results
Baha'i Reference Library: Search Results
Baha'i Reference Library: Search Results

Okay. So you are basically saying that Bahai theology is contradicting Islamic theology because Islamic theology does not say God is all-loving.

By the way, I can tell you clearly that someone is lying to you saying the Bab said "all-loving". They probably made that because their audience is the western audience with a background in hearing christian words.

It's made up.

 

[Trailblazer]

Okay. So you are basically saying that Bahai theology is contradicting Islamic theology because Islamic theology does not say God is all-loving.

Interesting... Can you tell me what Islamic theology says about God?
I have never been convinced that God is all-loving.

 

[firedragon]

Interesting... Can you tell me what Islamic theology says about God?
I have never been convinced that God is all-loving.

Not only Islamic theology, even the Bab, though your website claims otherwise, says "most merciful". Not all loving.

In Islamic, God does not love the sinners unless they repent. It's the same in the Bible. Sinners like the Al Fasadhin Fil Ard who kill innocent people, pretend they are believers, claim this, that and the other etc, and they are not reforming.

So it's false to say God is all-loving, all merciful. It's a strawman.