Atheists: If God existed would God……

[Trailblazer]

If I intentionally create a situation that can cause a result, then I am responsible for that result when it occurs. It does not mean that I am the sole cause, but my responsibility is not erased just because another actor stands between me and that result.

I agree. If God intentionally created a situation that could cause a result, then God is partially responsible for that result when it occurs

 

[Sheldon]

Scolopendra said: ↑
Which God are we talking about here?

The one true God, which is the only God that exists.

And which one is that?

 

[ppp]

I agree. If God intentionally created a situation that could cause a result, then God is partially responsible for that result when it occurs

And if your god is omnipotent and omniscient and if he is the only initial cause, then everything that occurs bears your gods intent.

 

[Trailblazer]

And which one is that?

There is only one God, the creator God who created the whole universe.

 

[Trailblazer]

And if your god is omnipotent and omniscient and if he is the only initial cause, then everything that occurs bears your gods intent.

No, it does not because much of what happens is owing to human intent.
God being omnipotent and omniscient has nothing to do with what God intended.

 

[Scolopendra]

There is only one God, the creator God who created the whole universe.

You said Krishna is a Messenger of this progressive revelation in Baha'i yet Hindu are anything but monotheist so this clashes a lot with your statement. I'm not sure how I'd feel about it if I was a hindu and saw this kind of cherrypicking done on my religion, (no offence).

 

[ppp]

No, it does not because much of what happens is owing to human intent.

You have already agreed otherwise.

If God intentionally created a situation that could cause a result, then God is partially responsible for that result when it occurs

God being omnipotent and omniscient has nothing to do with what God intended.

Impossible. Unintended consequences can only occur in impotence or ignorance.

 

[LuisDantas]

Atheists: If God existed would God do #1 or #2, as noted below?

These are two separate questions.

1. If God existed would God communicate directly to everyone?
2. If God existed would God prove that He exists to everyone?

I am not asking if God could communicate directly to everyone or prove that He exists to everyone.
I am not asking if God should communicate directly to everyone or prove that He exists to everyone.

I am asking if God would God communicate directly to everyone or prove that He exists to everyone IF GOD EXISTED.

If you answer yes, please explain why you answered yes.
If you answer no, please explain why you answered no.

Thanks, Trailblazer

No idea.

Various conceptions of deity might or might not care about either. Some would not be capable of communicating with anyone at all.

For the record, this question is viewing things backwards IMO. We should decide which attributes and roles to give deities before deciding to use them in our practices. Presuming them to be existing and then guessing what they would be like defeats the purpose.

 

[Trailblazer]

You said Krishna is a Messenger of this progressive revelation in Baha'i yet Hindu are anything but monotheist so this clashes a lot with your statement. I'm not sure how I'd feel about it if I was a hindu and saw this kind of cherrypicking done on my religion, (no offence).

Hindus is the oldest religion in the world.
Nobody knows what Krishna taught because Krishna did not write any scriptures.
Krishna was born in northern India (around 3,228 BCE)

The Bhagavad Vita was likely composed in the 1st or 2nd century CE by an ancient sage named Vyasa. It was composed centuries later so there would be no way for the Vyasa to have known what Krishna taught. As such, the Hindu belief that Krishna taught that there are 'many Gods' is not verifiable. It is just a belief that came into being long, long after Krishna lived.

 

[Trailblazer]

You have already agreed otherwise.

No, I have not agreed otherwise. I sad that God is partially responsible for that result when it occurs, I did not say that God is fully responsible for the result.

Impossible. Unintended consequences can only occur in impotence or ignorance.

God does not intend for anything to happen except what He causes to happen through His will.
God allows for human free will, and that is what God intended for humans when God created humans with free will.

God does not intend for humans to commit murders. Just go into any court of law and try to use that as a defense. Humans have free will so they are responsible for their actions. Everyone knows that and upon that rests the entire criminal justice system worldwide. God never goes on trial.

Free WIll, Determinism, and the Criminal Justice System

 

[ppp]

No, I have not agreed otherwise. I sad that God is partially responsible for that result when it occurs, I did not say that God is fully responsible for the result.

I didn't say that your purported god would be fully responsible either. In fact, the response of yours I just quoted was was a reply to my post where I was the one who brought up partial responsibility. I feel like your responses are knee jerk reactions to things you imagine I mean with little reference to what I have said.

God does not intend for anything to happen except what He causes to happen through His will.

You lack the capacity to know that.

God does not intend for humans to commit murders.

Unintended consequences can only occur in impotence or ignorance.

Just go into any court of law and try to use that as a defense.

The court system is irrelevant.

Humans have free will so they are responsible for their actions.

Humans don't have free will, however they are responsible for their actions.

Everyone knows that and upon that rests the entire criminal justice system worldwide.

The court system is irrelevant.

 

[Trailblazer]

I didn't say that your purported god would be fully responsible either. In fact, the response of yours I just quoted was was a reply to my post where I was the one who brought up partial responsibility. I feel like your responses are knee jerk reactions to things you imagine I mean with little reference to what I have said.

Policy: And if your god is omnipotent and omniscient and if he is the only initial cause, then everything that occurs bears your gods intent.

Tb: God being omnipotent and omniscient has nothing to do with what God intended.

Policy: Impossible. Unintended consequences can only occur in impotence or ignorance.

That implies that if God is omnipotent everything that happens is an intended consequence of God's intentions and that means that God is responsible for everything that happens.

You lack the capacity to know that.

You lack the capacity to know that God does intend for anything to happen other than what He causes to happen through His will.

Unintended consequences can only occur in impotence or ignorance.

So we are right back to square one. If unintended consequences can only occur in impotence or ignorance implies that if God is omnipotent everything that happens is an intended consequence of God's intentions.

The court system is irrelevant.

Why? Because you want to blame God instead of humans?

Humans don't have free will, however they are responsible for their actions.

That is the most illogical statement I have ever heard. Humans have free will and that is why they are responsible for their actions and that is why criminals are convicted in courts of law.

The court system is irrelevant.

Why? Because you want to blame God instead of humans?

Why do so many atheists want to blame God and abdicate responsibility for human choices and actions?
It is patently illogical to say God is responsible for everything that happens in this world just because God is omnipotent. There is no logical connection between omnipotence and responsibility.

 

[ppp]

That implies that if God is omnipotent everything that happens is an intended consequence of God's intentions and that means that God is responsible for everything that happens.

Yes. But it does not mean that your god is the only one responsible.
I said, "...then everything that occurs bears your gods intent."
Any given set of actions are the result of the intent of all the agents that have a knowing hand in fruits of their actions.

That implies that if God is omnipotent everything that happens is an intended consequence of God's intentions and that means that God is responsible for everything that happens.

Yes.

You lack the capacity to know that God does intend for anything to happen other than what He causes to happen through His will.

Unintended consequences can only occur in impotence or ignorance.

Why? Because you want to blame God instead of humans?

Spare me your attempt at emotional manipulation. Or at least be less ham-handed about it.

Humans have free will and that is why they are responsible for their actions

It is not.

that is why criminals are convicted in courts of law.

Courts are irrelevant.

Why? Because you want to blame God instead of humans?

Why do so many atheists want to blame God and abdicate responsibility for human choices and actions?

And another ham-handed attempt at emotional manipulation. My observations annoy you, therefore I am trying to destroy a non-extant being. You could just say the words "insert ad hominem here". It would save you on all the typing.

It is patently illogical to say God is responsible for everything that happens in this world just because God is omnipotent. There is no logical connection between omnipotence and responsibility.

Really? What can you be responsible for if you have no power to do anything?

 

[Trailblazer]

Really? What can you be responsible for if you have no power to do anything?

Tb said: It is patently illogical to say God is responsible for everything that happens in this world just because God is omnipotent. There is no logical connection between omnipotence and responsibility.

Your response did not address what I said and it was a red herring.
God has all power to do anything He chooses to do, but if God does not use His power to do x, then God is not responsible for doing x.
That is logic 101 stuff.

 

[ppp]

Your response did not address what I said and it was a red herring.

I'm sure that it felt good to say that, but it did and it wasn't. Perhaps if you had spent some time thinking it through rather than trying to get some back.

God has all power to do anything He chooses to do, but if God does not use His power to do x, then God is not responsible for doing x.

If God doesn't use his power to do X then X doesn't happen. Ever.

That is logic 101 stuff.

You have never taken Logic 101. Have you?

 

[Trailblazer]

If God doesn't use his power to do X then X doesn't happen. Ever.

Of course not. Do you have a point to make about that?

You have never taken Logic 101. Have you?

I have two Masters degrees in different fields, so yes, I have taken more than logic 101.
I got an A+ in logic.

 

[CG Didymus]

If I intentionally create a situation that can cause a result, then I am responsible for that result when it occurs. It does not mean that I am the sole cause, but my responsibility is not erased just because another actor stands between me and that result.

And if your god is omnipotent and omniscient and if he is the only initial cause, then everything that occurs bears your gods intent.

It's strange why some religious people don't want to blame God. It's as if giving people "free-will" gets him off the hook.

But if we played God and built ourselves some robots, and told them what we thought would be a preferred behavior, like be nice, kind, loving etc. But we didn't want to force them to behave that way but wanted them to choose for themselves and gave them the freedom to choose whatever behavior they wanted. But, if they hurt other robots or destroyed them, it would be okay for the other robots to destroy them. And why would we be surprised if all hell broke out? And... not want to take responsibility for these things we created?

Now because we build them, why couldn't we tweak them a little and program them to choose to do whatever they wanted. But not to destroy or harm other robots? I think we could do something like that. But God can't? Or doesn't want to? Dumb.

 

[Scolopendra]

Hindus is the oldest religion in the world.
Nobody knows what Krishna taught because Krishna did not write any scriptures.
Krishna was born in northern India (around 3,228 BCE)

The Bhagavad Vita was likely composed in the 1st or 2nd century CE by an ancient sage named Vyasa. It was composed centuries later so there would be no way for the Vyasa to have known what Krishna taught. As such, the Hindu belief that Krishna taught that there are 'many Gods' is not verifiable. It is just a belief that came into being long, long after Krishna lived.

By that time the Hindu Valley civilization already established a polytheism which gave rise to the current Hindu pantheon. If we are talking about what is verifiable or not, contrary to most of the messengers you listed Krishna is one of the less likely to have even existed.

 

[ppp]

Of course not. Do you have a point to make about that?

You say you agree. Yet my statement directly contradicts your position. You don't see that?

 

[ppp]

It's strange why some religious people don't want to blame God. It's as if giving people "free-will" gets him off the hook.

Yep. They seem to think that a human taking an action absolves their god of any intentional causal connection to that action. But only when it's behavior of which they disapprove

Now because we build them, why couldn't we tweak them a little and program them to choose to do whatever they wanted. But not to destroy or harm other robots? I think we could do something like that. But God can't? Or doesn't want to? Dumb.

Ultimate knowledge and power. No causal or moral responsibility. This is her god.