Atheists: If God existed would God……

[lewisnotmiller]

@lewisnotmiller said that atheists don't blame God for anything and I told him almost all atheists I know blame God for everything that is bad in this world, everything they don't like. The evidence is readily available as it is plastered all over this forum.

Yes, but...again...you're confusing a rhetorical device for their thoughts.
As an example;
If a believer says to me 'God is great...he designed all the creatures in the world, and they are too complex to have happened by accident.', there are various ways I could respond.

One common way is to assume God is real for the sake of debate, since clearly that assumption is being made by the other party.

'God seemed pretty sadistic when he designed the Emerald Cockroach Wasp, then. And I'm confused why he made sex such a primary driver for most animals...only to design asexual lizards.'

The discussion can continue, with the believer providing their defence of God, or whatever.
But the atheist doesn't believe in God. At all. If they do, by definition, they are NOT AN ATHEIST.

Anyway...atheists don't blame God for anything. It's impossible. But they might find it frustrating that believers worship a being with what would appear to us to be non-worshipful qualities.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Corbett National Park, which has the highest number of Tigers in India (215) sits next to Ramnagar City in Uttar Pradesh (pop. 100,000). Turn left from the main city street - and you are in the tiger domain.

Aamdanda Gate, Bijrani Range, Ramnagar, Uttar Pradsh

I believe that 'the message' is eternal in Christianity also, Aupmanyav.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I believe that 'the message' is eternal in Christianity also, Aupmanyav.

I don't know. Jesus came with a new covenant. Mohammad with another, and then Bahais tell me that they have the latest covenant. That is why the confusion.

 

[samtonga43]

I don't know. Jesus came with a new covenant. Mohammad with another, and then Bahais tell me that they have the latest covenant. That is why the confusion.

I believe that Jesus is the Second Person of the Trinity. He is unique. He is God Incarnate.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Nice. Though I do not believe in existence of Gods, Hindu Gods too have avataras, appearances in the world, in human or animal forms, Lord Vishnu has 10. Who can understand what Gods desire and for what purpose?

 

[CG Didymus]

Abrogation, that is a problem with Abrahamic relgions. Not like in Hinduism where the message is eternal and the only requirement is to be humane.

Since Baha'u'llah didn't have much, if anything, to say about Hinduism, then I wonder if it was just an afterthought?

Then "abrogation"? There are verses in the Bible that make it seem like "God's laws" are forever. Then Christianity, Islam and the Baha'i Faith all change the laws.

Nice. Though I do not believe in Gods, our Gods too have avataras, appearances in the world, in human or animal forms, Lord Vishnu has 10. Who can understand what Gods desire and for what purpose?

I don't know why a Baha'i would believe anything other than those Gods being mythical? But they have committed themselves to believing in Krishna as a true manifestation of the same God that "revealed" the Abrahamic religions. Why don't they talk about the other incarnations of Vishnu?

New message, ha ha. There is nothing new in the world, except claimants.

And what a claim it is. Mirza Husayn Ali says that he is "Baha'u'llah", The Glory of God, the return of Christ and all the other ones promised in all the other religions. That has been the problem. How can he prove that? The prophecies? No, they don't fit, or they are too vague. His character, his mission and his writings? Maybe... if a person wants to believe that those things prove he is telling the truth. But... if the Baha'i Faith is the truth then this is what is important...

And then, talk of brotherhood and peace!

They should be the cause of bringing peace and harmony to the world. That is what they should be talking about. Building bridges between groups of people that have contradictory and antagonistic beliefs.

Unfortunately, some Baha'is add to the problems. Peace and harmony will come, they say... But only when people realize that the Baha'i Faith is true, that there is only one God and one religion. The way it is presented essentially makes everybody but them wrong. Atheists are wrong. Christians are wrong. All the people in any of the other religions are wrong.

They can say the words, "We believe all the religions are true." But not yours. What they mean is all "true" religions. All religions that have an approved manifestation that revealed the religion. But, even with those religions, they don't believe that they have kept the correct and true teachings of the manifestation. All of the religions, they believe, have added things in and misinterpreted the "true" teachings. So, which religions do they believe are true? None of the ones being practiced today. They're all flawed one way or another.

How do they talk of peace and brotherhood when they believe everybody else but them, are wrong?

 

[CG Didymus]

Probably true enough but I'm interested in why there are so many versions

Baha'is do have an explanation, but that is one of the things I don't believe about their religion.

First, the "true" religions... These were revealed by a manifestation of God. Supposedly, in every age they came and brought the same spiritual teachings but different "social" teachings and laws. Like to the Israelites God told them to obey the Sabbath or you'll be stoned to death. That was a "social" law and when humanity matured enough God sent another manifestation that changed the old "social" laws. In this age, Baha'u'llah has brought the laws needed to unite the whole world. Laws like tattooing thieves, so the towns people can know who they are and kick them out of their town. Of course, killing murderers and burning arsonists. Those are social laws and can be changed by the next manifestation.

So were already have different religions that are true but that have differences. The new one supposedly abrogates the older one. But then different sects developed within these true religions. These sects wandered off the original teachings, though. So, they aren't perfectly true but corrupted a little bit. After a while, several corrupted versions of the true religion sprung up, because people added in man-made traditions based on their own misinterpretations of the "true" "original" message from the manifestation.

Then we have false religions. They are man-made and were never revealed by a true manifestation of God.

That's the kind of things I've been told by Baha'is.

I get the feeling that all religions were man-made. All people and all cultures made up their rules and Gods and religions and made-up traditions and myths that confirmed those things were true. Like one people could say, "Yes, the Gods have spoken. If we want to have good crops, we must sacrifice one of our enemies to the Earth God." Or, "If we want safe passage across the sea, we must throw one of us overboard to appease the Water God." Even with supposed true, revealed religions, I wonder... did God really ask and need people to chop up animals to pay for their sins? Then in those "true" revealed religions did God really part the sea and send fire and brimstone to destroy a city? Or... was all these things just myths and legends about the God of an ancient people?

Baha'i Faith has some good stuff in it... but is it 100% true? Their explanation of why there's so many versions of religion is just one thing I can't believe is completely and totally true. Kinda true? Sounds close? Is good enough? Maybe is true? None of those answers are good enough. The Baha'i answer is supposed to be from an inerrant, infallible source that heard it directly from God. I, personally, don't believe it is true at all.

 

[CG Didymus]

He doesn't seem at all confused to me; the exact opposite, in fact.

I can understand why to Baha'is they'd say I'm confused. In my defense I'd say that it is because some of the things Baha'is say and believe are confusing.

 

[Truthseeker]

The only thing I am attached to is the cats, but the are not really a material thing, they are a creation of God.

So is the rest of the world. I know what you mean, though. They have sentience, and that makes them different. They have an animal spirit which is not really of this world. How would you characterize your relationship with me? Are you attached to me? Or would characterize it in a different way? I'm your bff, that's all I know.

He never had many tests, he even said that, but he never grew much spiritually either. As much as I hate the tests I know they have helped me grow spiritually.

That's good. This growth in spirituality will be especially helpful in the next world. You don't feel good at all while going through those tests, of course. It depends on the person whether they welcome the tests. Abdu'l-Baha welcomed His tests, but who can be 'Abdu'l-Baha?

At every daybreak, triple darkness. At eventide, stone-hearted tyranny. And never a moment's peace, and never any balm for the spear's red wounds. From moment to moment, word would come of my exile to the Fezzan sands; from hour to hour, I was to be cast into the endless sea. Now they would say that these homeless wanderers were ruined at last; again that the cross would soon be put to use. This wasted frame of mine was to be made the target for bullet or arrow; or again, this failing body was to be cut to ribbons by the sword.

Our alien acquaintances could not contain themselves for joy, and our treacherous friends exulted. 'Praise be to God,' one would exclaim, 'Here is our dream come true.' And another, 'God be thanked, our spear-head found the heart.'

Affliction beat upon this captive like the heavy rains of spring, and the victories of the malevolent swept down in a relentless flood, and still 'Abdu'l-Bahá remained happy and serene, and relied on the grace of the All-Merciful. That pain, that anguish, was a paradise of all delights; those chains were the necklace of a king on a throne in heaven. Content with God's will, utterly resigned, my heart surrendered to whatever fate had in store, I was happy. For a boon companion, I had great joy.

Finally a time came when the friends turned inconsolable, and abandoned all hope. It was then the morning dawned, and flooded all with unending light. The towering clouds were scattered, the dismal shadows fled. In that instant the fetters fell away, the chains were lifted off the neck of this homeless one and hung round the neck of the foe. Those dire straits were changed to ease, and on the horizon of God's bounties the sun of hope rose up. All this was out of God's grace and His bestowals.

And yet, from one point of view, this wanderer was saddened and despondent. For what pain, in the time to come, could I seek comfort? At the news of what granted wish could I rejoice? There was no more tyranny, no more affliction, no tragical events, no tribulations. My only joy in this swiftly-passing world was to tread the stony path of God and to endure hard tests and all material griefs. For otherwise, this earthly life would prove barren and vain, and better would be death. The tree of being would produce no fruit; the sown field of this existence would yield no harvest. Thus it is my hope that once again some circumstance will make my cup of anguish to brim over, and that beauteous Love, that Slayer of souls, will dazzle the beholders again. Then will this heart be blissful, this soul be blessed.
(Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 226)

He is referring to 1908, when the covenant-breakers had caused such mischief, that the Turkish government appeared to about to do something bad to Abdu'l-Baha, and suddenly the Sultan was overthrown by the Young Turk rebellion, and young turks freed all political prisoners, including Abdu'l-Baha.

Young Turks - Wikipedia

Young Turks (Turkish: Jön Türkler or Genç Türkler) was a political reform movement in the early 20th century that favored the replacement of the Ottoman Empire's absolute monarchy with a constitutional government. They led a rebellion against the absolute rule of Sultan Abdulhamid II in the 1908 Young Turk Revolution.[1] With this revolution, the Young Turks helped to establish the Second Constitutional Era in the same year, ushering in an era of multi-party democracy for the first time in the country's history.[2]

 

[Trailblazer]

Did you not say that you would like to burn the Bible? Have you changed your mind?

Yes, I have changed my mind. As I said to @Truthseeker I think the Bible should be put on the shelf where it belongs. The Bible was written for another age in history so it does not apply to the age in which we are living. We are no longer living in the Dispensation of Jesus, we are living in the Dispensation of Baha'u'llah. The Dispensation of Jesus was abrogated by the Revelation of Baha'u'llah. God is now ordering the affairs of the world through Baha'u'llah, not through Jesus.

“In conclusion of this theme, I feel, it should be stated that the Revelation identified with Bahá’u’lláh abrogates unconditionally all the Dispensations gone before it,”
God Passes By, p. 100

Dispensation

1. the divine ordering of the affairs of the world.
2. an appointment, arrangement, or favor, as by God.
3. a divinely appointed order or age:

e.g. the old Mosaic, or Jewish, dispensation; the new gospel, or Christian, dispensation.

Definition of dispensation | Dictionary.com

 

[Trailblazer]

People who are married and who live in the same house have a connection, Tb.
This is logical; to say otherwise is illogical.

This has nothing to do with logic.

logic: reasoning conducted or assessed according to strict principles of validity.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=what+is+logic

It is true that we have a connection, but what I said is that I have not been emotionally or physically connected to him for a long time.

connection: a relationship in which a person, thing, or idea is linked or associated with something else.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=connection+means

If married people who have children get divorced they still have a connection through shared custody, but they may or may not care about each other anymore.

 

[Truthseeker]

Yes, I have changed my mind. As I said to @Truthseeker I think the Bible should be put on the shelf where it belongs. The Bible was written for another age in history so it does not apply to the age in which we are living. We are no longer living in the Dispensation of Jesus, we are living in the Dispensation of Baha'u'llah. The Dispensation of Jesus was abrogated by the Revelation of Baha'u'llah. God is now ordering the affairs of the world through Baha'u'llah, not through Jesus.

“In conclusion of this theme, I feel, it should be stated that the Revelation identified with Bahá’u’lláh abrogates unconditionally all the Dispensations gone before it,”
God Passes By, p. 100

I was going to say that the Revelation of Muhammad abrogated the Dispensation of Jesus. I wonder what the Guardian meant when he said "all the Dispensations". He chose his words carefully. Good quote.

 

[Trailblazer]

Shame on any Bahai who would like to burn the Bible.

Shame on any Christian who would continue clinging to the Bible after Christ has returned and revealed a new Book — the Book unto which all the Books of former Dispensations must needs be referred, the Book that standeth amongst them all transcendent and supreme. The Bible was once the good news but now the Bible is old news.

“They that valiantly labor in quest of God, will, when once they have renounced all else but Him, be so attached and wedded unto that City, that a moment’s separation from it would to them be unthinkable. They will hearken unto infallible proofs from the Hyacinth of that assembly, and will receive the surest testimonies from the beauty of its Rose, and the melody of its Nightingale. Once in about a thousand years shall this City be renewed and readorned….

That City is none other than the Word of God revealed in every age and dispensation. In the days of Moses it was the Pentateuch; in the days of Jesus, the Gospel; in the days of Muhammad, the Messenger of God, the Qur’án; in this day, the Bayán; and in the Dispensation of Him Whom God will make manifest, His own Book—the Book unto which all the Books of former Dispensations must needs be referred, the Book that standeth amongst them all transcendent and supreme.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 269-270

 

[Trailblazer]

A pretty bold claim, In practice also one that can't be sustained without careful, deliberate restrictions to what should be considered a religion and what they actually say.

It is a pretty bold claim and you are correct in saying it cannot be sustained without careful, deliberate restrictions to what should be considered a religion and what they actually say. This is a very big subject. First however, you would have to understand what I mean by 'spiritual message.' What I mean is spiritual truth

"It will never be abrogated, for it is spiritual and not material truth; it is faith, knowledge, certitude, justice, piety, righteousness, trustworthiness, love of God, benevolence, purity, detachment, humility, meekness, patience and constancy. It shows mercy to the poor, defends the oppressed, gives to the wretched and uplifts the fallen......

These foundations of the Religion of God, which are spiritual and which are the virtues of humanity, cannot be abrogated; they are irremovable and eternal, and are renewed in the cycle of every Prophet."
Some Answered Questions, pp. 47-48

Are you saying that it was not a proper message for some other time? Any ideas on why?

The message for this age is world unity and the oneness of mankind. That message was not a proper message for any other times because the world was not ready to be connected until it was able to be connected for reasons stated below.

“‘Abdu’l-Bahá Himself elucidates this truth in one of His Tablets: “In cycles gone by, though harmony was established, yet, owing to the absence of means, the unity of all mankind could not have been achieved. Continents remained widely divided, nay even among the peoples of one and the same continent association and interchange of thought were well-nigh impossible. Consequently intercourse, understanding and unity amongst all the peoples and kindreds of the earth were unattainable. In this day, however, means of communication have multiplied, and the five continents of the earth have virtually merged into one…. In like manner all the members of the human family, whether peoples or governments, cities or villages, have become increasingly interdependent. For none is self-sufficiency any longer possible, inasmuch as political ties unite all peoples and nations, and the bonds of trade and industry, of agriculture and education, are being strengthened every day. Hence the unity of all mankind can in this day be achieved. Verily this is none other but one of the wonders of this wondrous age, this glorious century. Of this past ages have been deprived, for this century—the century of light—has been endowed with unique and unprecedented glory, power and illumination. Hence the miraculous unfolding of a fresh marvel every day. Eventually it will be seen how bright its candles will burn in the assemblage of man.”
The Promised Day Is Come, Religion and Social Evolution, pp. 120-121

 

[Trailblazer]

What is this message?

The spiritual message is spiritual truth.

"It will never be abrogated, for it is spiritual and not material truth; it is faith, knowledge, certitude, justice, piety, righteousness, trustworthiness, love of God, benevolence, purity, detachment, humility, meekness, patience and constancy. It shows mercy to the poor, defends the oppressed, gives to the wretched and uplifts the fallen......

These foundations of the Religion of God, which are spiritual and which are the virtues of humanity, cannot be abrogated; they are irremovable and eternal, and are renewed in the cycle of every Prophet."
Some Answered Questions, pp. 47-48

 

[Trailblazer]

That's true. You are free to form your own opinion, John53. We all are. What we believe is overrated.

Can you explain what you meant by "What we believe is overrated?"

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe that 'the message' is eternal in Christianity also, Aupmanyav.

I also believe that the spiritual message in Christianity is eternal, but there is more to a religion than just the spiritual message.

“the Law of God is divided into two parts. One is the fundamental basis which comprises all spiritual things—that is to say, it refers to the spiritual virtues and divine qualities; this does not change nor alter: it is the Holy of Holies, which is the essence of the Law of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muhammad, the Báb, and Bahá’u’lláh, and which lasts and is established in all the prophetic cycles. It will never be abrogated, for it is spiritual and not material truth; it is faith, knowledge, certitude, justice, piety, righteousness, trustworthiness, love of God, benevolence, purity, detachment, humility, meekness, patience and constancy. It shows mercy to the poor, defends the oppressed, gives to the wretched and uplifts the fallen......

These divine qualities, these eternal commandments, will never be abolished; nay, they will last and remain established for ever and ever. These virtues of humanity will be renewed in each of the different cycles; for at the end of every cycle the spiritual Law of God—that is to say, the human virtues—disappears, and only the form subsists.

The second part of the Religion of God, which refers to the material world, and which comprises fasting, prayer, forms of worship, marriage and divorce, the abolition of slavery, legal processes, transactions, indemnities for murder, violence, theft and injuries—this part of the Law of God, which refers to material things, is modified and altered in each prophetic cycle in accordance with the necessities of the times.”
Some Answered Questions, pp. 47-48

In addition to these two parts of the Religion of God, we have the primary mission of each Messenger, which changes from age to age; and it is progressive, each mission building upon the previous one. Jesus focused on a high standard of morality and discipline into man as an individual, as the fundamental unit in human society. Muhammad focused on nation building, and Baha’u’llah focused on world unity and the oneness of mankind. Each one of these was a necessary building block that enabled the next one to take place. Mankind’s spiritual evolution develops gradually, proceeding step by step, and that is why God reveals religious Truth in various stages over time. That is called Progressive Revelation.

 

[Truthseeker]

Can you explain what you meant by "What we believe is overrated?"

I'm referring especially to people in the same religion (Christianity, Islam) who believe different things, but sometimes because the other has different beliefs about their religion condemn the other sect to hell. It also refers to people in different religions who condemn the people of that other religion to hell. We should not condemn atheists to hell. Our actions are important too.

 

[Trailblazer]

Anyway...atheists don't blame God for anything. It's impossible. But they might find it frustrating that believers worship a being with what would appear to us to be non-worshipful qualities.

Yes, atheists do blame God for lots of things. The fact that they say they do not believe in God is a moot point and an attempt at obfuscation. As soon as an atheist invokes God in a dialogue with a believer they are talking about an existent entity since a nonexistent entity cannot be to blame for anything.

Let me give you an example: Some atheists say that an omnipotent-omniscient-benevolent God is would not allow so much suffering in this world, and this implies that God -- if God exists -- is to blame for suffering. However, if God does not exist God cannot be to blame for suffering or anything else anything.

Atheists have to pick a side. They either believe God exists in which case God is responsible for certain things, or they do not believe God exists, in which case God cannot be responsible for anything.

Atheists cannot have it both ways and still be logical.

 

[wellwisher]

The question you appear to be asking is why does god rely on faith rather than evidence.
One of the things that convinces me that there is no god, is that he could communicate but chooses to not do.

The experts in science do not communicate to me or you directly, either, so they do not exist? They do exist but they leave it up to you and I to read what they wrote, seek the advice others, and move up through the ranks of education, so we can learn what they said in their writings.

Jesus said he will leave behind a comforter, the spirit of truth who will be with us forever. The option to speak to God is there; the Holy Spirit is part of the trinity of God. The teacher cannot reach the student, who does not seek him and wish to learn. Faith is the conduit, since God is not limited to just sensory systems like the mortals.

Science use machines to extend our senses; telescope for the eyes. God does this in a different way, that does not require machines. He needs access to the frontal lobe for a type of gold tooth connection.