Atheists: If God existed would God……

[muhammad_isa]

Are you mixing the "no true Scotsman" and the "straw man" fallacies? It's ok because neither applies to my comment.

Doesn't it?
@Sheldon has a fallacy for everything he doesn't agree with

 

[muhammad_isa]

Who says the universe is intelligent?

Me !
Well, I consider myself as part of the universe, and I think that I have been blessed with an intellect.

 

[ppp]

Yes .. Abrahamic religion acknowledges that there are those who wish evil on believers.
We are promised reward for righteous behaviour, and punishment for bad behaviour.
For a disbeliever, it makes no difference .. they follow a path of their own desire.

I take the warnings seriously. Ii don't see this as threatening as I see that G-d is not a person, but of infinite nature and warns us that we ruin our own souls by sneering and turning away.

The reason for this, is that souls are immortal and everything we do in this life has consequence. Turning away from G-d, means turning away from righteousness.

As I said...

Gotta love a religion that is so unbelievable that it has to resort to threats.

 

[Sheldon]

As I recall, I said that a rational person would look at the evidence that God provided but I cannot find the post. I never said that God provided any evidence.

So it's rational to look at the evidence that god provided, but he hasn't provided any, you're priceless.

Of course, it they did not recognize it as evidence that God provided then there would be no reason to look at it. That does not mean they are irrational.

So a rational person would do something, but a rational person would also not do it, again, priceless.

Just because I said what I think a rational person would do that does not mean that someone who did not do that is irrational.

So your claim was meaningless, as the word rational was just redundant rhetoric. Again, priceless. Time for me to step off the TB merry go around sorry.

 

[muhammad_isa]

As I said...

That in no way engages with my post.

 

[ppp]

That in no way engages with my post.

That's okay. Your post in no way engaged with mine.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Your post in no way engaged with mine.

Perhaps you'd like to show us why?
Did I not explain your objection?

Why is it that believers don't consider it a threat?
After all, they can go to hell too, which is why they fear G-d.

 

[CG Didymus]

Your faith rests on the belief that you picked the right messenger - just like every other believer.
You don't know, you can't know, that that assumption is right. And since all your other beliefs rest upon this first assumption, they are all preliminary. Even if they are logically consistent, someone else could come to another logical consistent system by picking a different messenger.

And that is exactly what we see. People believe that their version of "truth" is the right one. And they all have ways to "prove" it.

 

[CG Didymus]

It's pretty simple. Everyone thinks their God or their version of God in their religion is real and all the others are wrong. In the early OT times each nation had 1 or more national Gods. Early OT scripture even recognizes other Gods. In an early version of Deuteronomy there was a passage about Yahweh sitting at a council of all the Gods. El was the most high. Yahweh got Israel as his to rule over. Eventually after being invaded a few times the Hebrew leaders decided they needed to be more Yahweh-centric and decided all other Gods were false. After Hellenism (the Greek occupation) Yahweh became the supreme God. During the Middle Ages Christian theologians moved Yahweh from the 7th heaven in outer space to a different dimension and added Platonic concepts of "the One" to him. Tri-omni features making him infinite in several ways. Other versions of God also followed this progress.

The Hindu version of God is completely different.

At any rate, it's all speculation. At least for theism, it's all fiction.

That's why I don't believe in the Baha'i Faith. I think people invented their religion and their Gods and borrowed concepts from others. The Baha'is say all the major religion were part of a progression. Each religion had a prophet/messenger founder that revealed new social laws from God, but the spiritual laws were always the same. Then Baha'is are left with explaining away why there's so many differences between the different religions.

 

[CG Didymus]

How convenient that you know precisely what god will and will not provide, almost as though you too were a messenger

Incredibly convenient that God will not provide verifiable, objective evidence that he exists. Yet Baha'is deny the existence of the Volcano God or the Wind God or the Fertility God or the Trinitarian Christian God. How do they know they don't exist? Especially the Volcano God. As soon as the people threw a virgin into the volcano, it stopped erupting. Coincidence? Or is there something to it?

Of course, we don't believe that there is a Volcano God, but I'll bet it was very important to those people that did. Just like the God of the Baha'is is important to them. But to others? Why do we have to believe in their God? Or any invisible, unprovable God? At least Baha'is don't sacrifice virgins or animals to their God.

 

[ChristineM]

As soon as the people threw a virgin into the volcano, it stopped erupting. Coincidence? Or is there something to it?

I wouldn't recommend trying it to find out ;-)

Why do we have to believe in their God? Or any invisible, unprovable God?

Why indeed.

 

[CG Didymus]

The idea of God not living up to expectations makes zero sense if you don't believe God exists. The only thing not living up to atheist expectations here are the proposed definitions of gods from believers. You can't spin this in to an attack on God.

So... Atheists would expect objective evidence that God exists, if God existed. But, because God is assumed to exist by some, then Atheists are trying to make this assumed God do things that this assumed God doesn't do? And that is prove himself real?

So, why would a God-believer expect an Atheist to do something they don't do... accept that God exists without any objective evidence?

 

[CG Didymus]

Time for me to step off the TB merry go around sorry.

I had to do it, but I still enjoy her threads. But yes, they just keep going in circles. How many times can you point out fallacies and then have them denied? Then you accused of fallacies. But if you can take it, I enjoy reading all the back and forth. It's going to be a sad day when everyone just stops posting and jumps off the merry-go-round.

 

[ppp]

Perhaps you'd like to show us why?

Perhaps will be more fruitful so you to explain why you think it did engage with my post.

Did I not explain your objection?

Not that I saw.

Why is it that believers don't consider it a threat?

I don't know about Muslims, but the thought of hell terrorizes a lot of Christian believers.

After all, they can go to hell too, which is why they fear G-d.

Oh, the irony.

 

[Trailblazer]

Again, convenient.

However, if you take the OT at its word then yes, god is capable of and has provided exactly what you say he will never do. Of course claiming the OT is allegory is also convenient don't you think?

Convenient? I have no dog in this fight because I know that God exists, so it does not matter to me what other people believe or disbelieve. If people want to believe in ancient traditions as if they actually took place that is their own choice.

Although I believe God is capable of doing that, God does not do everything that He is capable of. If God did that He could wipe out the earth in a heartbeat, but He doesn't. So the argument that God is capable of doing x because God is omnipotent so God would or should do x does not hold water. It is a typical atheist ploy but it is illogical.

I do not believe that God spoke to the Israelities from the sky, not anymore than I believe that someday Jesus was return, barrelling down from the sky through the clouds. However, if I had to say which one is more likely, I'd say the former is at least plausible, although that does not mean God is ever going to do that again. God has always used Messengers and Prophets, but even if God spoke to the Jews from the sky that was an exception. God is not going to do that again and the circumstances of life on earth as well as the people of this age are completely different now.

Please note what the Israelites said to Moses in verse 19 below. They were afraid to have God speak directly to them so they wanted Moses to act as an intermediary between them and God.

And of course Moses was responsible for what is in the Torah, so an intermediary was also necessary.

Exodus 20

18 As all the people witnessed the signs of God’s presence—the blast of the ram’s horn, the roaring thunder, the flashing lightning, and the smoke-covered mountain—they shook with fear and astonishment and wisely kept their distance.

Israelites (to Moses): 19 We are afraid to have God speak directly to us; we are certain that we will die. You speak to us instead; we promise to listen.

Moses: 20 Don’t be afraid. These powerful manifestations are God’s way of instilling awe and fear in you so that you will not sin; He is testing you for your own good.

21 But everyone remained far away from the mountain as Moses began moving toward the thick, dark cloud where God was.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Nobody can ever prove that God spoke to the Israelites on Mt. Sinai, not anymore than anyone can prove that God spoke through Moses or any other Prophet or Messenger.

Below is from a slide show on Exodus, a Baha'i perspective.

Overview
1: The Exodus Narrative and Theories
The Exodus narrative is an important ancient tradition. There is compelling evidence that the story does not represent literal historical facts.

2: Understanding Bahá’í References
The Bahá’í Writings sometimes refer to the Exodus narrative as if it really happened. These references validate the spiritual truths contained in the scripture; however, they do not validate the story as historical fact.

3: Inner Meanings in the Exodus Narrative
The Exodus narrative contains spiritual truths that are universally relevant.

Read more:
https://wilmetteinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/BorovickaJan2018WebTalk.pdf

 

[Trailblazer]

I have yet to see you demonstrate that your belief that a god exists is true when some has asked you to do so.

Nobody can ever prove that God exists.... There is evidence but there is no proof....
I have said that a million times if I have said it once.

 

[ChristineM]

Convenient? I have no dog in this fight because I know that God exists, so it does not matter to me what other people believe or disbelieve. If people want to believe in ancient traditions as if they actually took place that is their own choice.

Although I believe God is capable of doing that, God does not do everything that He is capable of. If God did that He could wipe out the earth in a heartbeat, but He doesn't. So the argument that God is capable of doing x because God is omnipotent so God would or should do x does not hold water. It is a typical atheist ploy but it is illogical.

I do not believe that God spoke to the Israelities from the sky, not anymore than I believe that someday Jesus was return, barrelling down from the sky through the clouds. However, if I had to say which one is more likely, I'd say the former is at least plausible, although that does not mean God is ever going to do that again. God has always used Messengers and Prophets, but even if God spoke to the Jews from the sky that was an exception. God is not going to do that again and the circumstances of life on earth as well as the people of this age are completely different now.

Please note what the Israelites said to Moses in verse 19 below. They were afraid to have God speak directly to them so they wanted Moses to act as an intermediary between them and God.

And of course Moses was responsible for what is in the Torah, so an intermediary was also necessary.

Exodus 20

18 As all the people witnessed the signs of God’s presence—the blast of the ram’s horn, the roaring thunder, the flashing lightning, and the smoke-covered mountain—they shook with fear and astonishment and wisely kept their distance.

Israelites (to Moses): 19 We are afraid to have God speak directly to us; we are certain that we will die. You speak to us instead; we promise to listen.

Moses: 20 Don’t be afraid. These powerful manifestations are God’s way of instilling awe and fear in you so that you will not sin; He is testing you for your own good.

21 But everyone remained far away from the mountain as Moses began moving toward the thick, dark cloud where God was.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Nobody can ever prove that God spoke to the Israelites on Mt. Sinai, not anymore than anyone can prove that God spoke through Moses or any other Prophet or Messenger.

Below is from a slide show on Exodus, a Baha'i perspective.

Overview
1: The Exodus Narrative and Theories
The Exodus narrative is an important ancient tradition. There is compelling evidence that the story does not represent literal historical facts.

2: Understanding Bahá’í References
The Bahá’í Writings sometimes refer to the Exodus narrative as if it really happened. These references validate the spiritual truths contained in the scripture; however, they do not validate the story as historical fact.

3: Inner Meanings in the Exodus Narrative
The Exodus narrative contains spiritual truths that are universally relevant.

Read more:
https://wilmetteinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/BorovickaJan2018WebTalk.pdf

So long as you are happy with your excuses and i know that no got exists and I don't need excuse, just 100% lack of any falsifiable evidence, ever is enough for me.

 

[ppp]

Nobody can ever prove that God exists.... There is evidence but there is no proof....
I have said that a million times if I have said it once.

Sure. What you always do is shift word to extremes. Demonstrate becomes prove. Expect becomes want. I said nothing about proof, and yet there you bang on.

 

[Trailblazer]

It has nothing to do with want, trailblazer.you are just sticking that in there.

It has everything to do with want but it is also related to expect.
Atheists expect and want God to do everything they expect and want God to do, or else they are not going to believe that He exists...
And they cannot even see how illogical that is and how childish.
Thank God not all atheists are this childish and illogical, but a fair number are.

 

[Trailblazer]

So long as you are happy with your excuses and i know that no got exists and I don't need excuse, just 100% lack of any falsifiable evidence, ever is enough for me.

Excuses for what? I do not need any excuses nor do you.