Atheists: If God existed would God……

[PureX]

A lot of words here, nothing about what it represents that IS real as you claim.

So finish your thought, what is REAL that is represented by the rock?

I know what is represented, and it is the self's ego. Do you agree? If not, then offer your explanation.

The mystery is real. The questions that can only be answered by the content of that mystery are real. My gratitude to and for the existence of that mystery is real, and sincere. My ability to see that mystery manifesting in everyone around me is real, and my subsequent appreciations and wonder for them is also real. And whatever good I am able to manifest from within myself in terms of love, and forgiveness, and kindness, and generosity, and honesty, and beauty are real because of this mystery within me that we call "God".

It's like a black hole that only exists to us because of the way everything around is exists and behaves in relation to it. We don't know what "it" is. But we know it's there (here), and that it effects everything else. We have to use representational words and ideas and images because we don't know "it" directly. But that does not mean we don't OF IT.

 

[Trailblazer]

And I told you that you don't understand what the burden of proof is about, and this statement of yours is just more evidence of that.

It means that it's up to the one making the claim to support it with evidence. Almost nothing can be proven. Such "proof" is for things like math.

I never claimed that God exists, Baha'u'llah claimed that God exists, so the burden of proof is on Him, not on me.

Baha'u'llah provided evidence in support of His claims. The fact that you do not accept it as evidence does not make it non-evidence.

If somebody claims that a god exists (explicitly or implicitly), then that person takes on a burden of proof. So when that statement is challenged it's upto that person to support said claim. Not upto the challenger to disprove it or support the opposite claim.

Claims carry a burden of proof.

See above.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

You missed the point too. Is this what happens when you reject the wisdom from above? Yup. Mental blindness blocks clear understanding.
I'm sure @Trailblazer understood clearly.

I didn't miss any point.

Clearly the implication of your response there was that god isn't the creator of nasty desease but that humans are.

If that wasn't your point, then your post was extremely misleading at best.
I couldn't, in fact, for the life me imagine what your point instead was then.

I mean... You ARE literally saying it, after all.... Here's your post again to refresh your memory:

What this reveals, is that ills and dangers are due to activities - selfish, careless, greedy, and in some cases, ignorant activities.
So, do you still think it's strange, or does that paint a picture of how diseases are caused.
We have a lot of dirty people living, don't we... and it did not just start yesterday.
God created the people. The people... by their own choice of activities, cause the problems.


And you said that in response to someone asking that it would be strange that a creator didn't create the things that cause desease and genetic defects and alike.

In summary, your latest post here, is just dishonest backpaddling. You know, I wouldn't mind if you just honestly reflected on it and then took your words back. At least I'ld respect your honesty then.

 

[Trailblazer]

But you can't properly motivate the verdict.

The motivations you instead bring forward, would make a precedent which would cascade into having to rule the same for alien abduction, bigfoot, fairies, just about all other gods and basically really anything anyone's imagination can produce and how someone believe it.

The ruling would not be the same to any logical person.
The hundred-dollar difference is that there is no evidence of any of those entities existing but there is evidence of God existing. The fact that you do not LIKE the evidence does not make it non-evidence.

 

[F1fan]

The mystery is real.

Mysteries aren't things or objects that are real. They are a class of ideas that include uncertainties. So in essence what you are saying is that uncertainty is what the rock represents. Your previous post was misleading. You said what was represented was real, but failed to admit that the reality is that worshippers are uncertain.

The questions that can only be answered by the content of that mystery are real. My gratitude to and for the existence of that mystery is real, and sincere. My ability to see that mystery manifesting in everyone around me is real, and my subsequent appreciations and wonder for them is also real. And whatever good I am able to manifest from within myself in terms of love, and forgiveness, and kindness, and generosity, and honesty, and beauty are real because of this mystery within me that we call "God".

This offers no explanation for anything, just how you are uncertain about anything that involves the idea of God.

 

[PureX]

Theism is a primitive, tribal mindset based on primitive tribal beliefs, and it's a choice unlike the colour of ones skin which is totally lost on you.

You clearly have no idea what theism even is. You don't really even understand religion. And you never will as long as you keep nursing that idiotic bias.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I never claimed that God exists, Baha'u'llah claimed that God exists, so the burden of proof is on Him, not on me.

Sorry it doesn't work that way.
When you express beliefs in the claims made by X, you implicitly repeat the claims made by X. Now both you and X share a burden of proof.

You can't express a belief without implying a claim that is being believed.
Likewise, you can't make a claim without implying belief in said claim.

"God exists"
"I believe God exists"

They express the same thing: the belief that god exists. They both consider the claim "god exists" to be accurate and correct.

Baha'u'llah provided evidence in support of His claims.

Nope.

The fact that you do not accept it as evidence does not make it non-evidence.

But the fact that they do not hold up as evidence by definition of the word "evidence", does.

 

[PureX]

Mysteries aren't things or objects that are real. They are a class of ideas that include uncertainties. So in essence what you are saying is that uncertainty is what the rock represents. Your previous post was misleading. You said what was represented was real, but failed to admit that the reality is that worshippers are uncertain.


This offers no explanation for anything, just how you are uncertain about anything that involves the idea of God.

Then you may as well quit asking, because you clearly are not capable of understanding the answer.

 

[lukethethird]

You clearly have no idea what theism even is. You don't really even understand religion. And you never will as long as you keep nursing that idiotic bias.

I can see through theism for what it is as if it were made of glass, it is primitive and tribal, it is about accepting prescribed sets of primitive beliefs and demonizing those that don't believe as you do.

 

[Trailblazer]

The same can be said about alien abductees, fairies, unicorns, all other gods you don't believe in,... And whoeblodobokkie.

And you really cannot see the fallacy.

Hasty generalization is an informal fallacy of faulty generalization by reaching an inductive generalization based on insufficient evidence—essentially making a hasty conclusion without considering all of the variables. Faulty generalization - Wikipedia

How we determine if a thing exists is by looking at all the evidence.

Just because the same can be said about alien abductees, fairies, unicorns, all other gods I don't believe in that in NO WAY means that my God does not exist. There is no logical connection whatsoever.

As a simple analogy, just because there are junky cars in a junkyard that don't run that does not mean that there cannot be nice new cars in a car lot down the street.

 

[Trailblazer]

I can see through theism for what it is as if it were made of glass, it is primitive and tribal, it is about accepting prescribed sets of primitive beliefs and demonizing those that don't believe as you do.

It is the Fallacy of Hasty Generalization and the Fallacy of Jumping to conclusions to say that ALL religions are primitive and tribal just because SOME religions are primitive and tribal.

 

[nPeace]

I didn't miss any point.

Clearly the implication of your response there was that god isn't the creator of nasty desease but that humans are.

If that wasn't your point, then your post was extremely misleading at best.
I couldn't, in fact, for the life me imagine what your point instead was then.

I mean... You ARE literally saying it, after all.... Here's your post again to refresh your memory:

What this reveals, is that ills and dangers are due to activities - selfish, careless, greedy, and in some cases, ignorant activities.
So, do you still think it's strange, or does that paint a picture of how diseases are caused.
We have a lot of dirty people living, don't we... and it did not just start yesterday.
God created the people. The people... by their own choice of activities, cause the problems.


And you said that in response to someone asking that it would be strange that a creator didn't create the things that cause desease and genetic defects and alike.

In summary, your latest post here, is just dishonest backpaddling. You know, I wouldn't mind if you just honestly reflected on it and then took your words back. At least I'ld respect your honesty then.

Well clearly... You are wrong. So you have run off track, once again, because you "know so much".
People who think they know everything, are not willing to accept that they may be wrong, or that they make mistakes.
That's the sad reality of pride... and then the next best thing you do, is start making false accusations of the person's character - personal attacks.
I won't report you though. I let people of your type carry on thinking they are right... and continue looking down their nose.

 

[Trailblazer]

Sorry it doesn't work that way.
When you express beliefs in the claims made by X, you implicitly repeat the claims made by X. Now both you and X share a burden of proof.

Sorry it doesn't work that way. I have no burden because I am not making any claims.

Atheists are the ones who have the burden of proof to prove to themselves that God exists IF THEY WANT TO KNOW. Theists can lead you to the watering hole but we cannot make you drink.

 

[CG Didymus]

In order to educate someone there has to be some basis for demonstrating to them that you know and are capable of knowing the subject on which you are speaking. Otherwise, when it's not educating others, but merely preaching.

Baha'is call learning about their religion "deepening". Deepening in the faith is important so they can teach others. Especially those special souls they call "seekers". They're thirsty for the word. Hungry for the truth, and they drink in every word.

For some of us we'd use different terms to describe what's happening. Because we don't believe what the religion teaches then it's not "deepening"... it is getting indoctrinated. And the "seekers" are not seekers but suckers waiting to be reeled into to some religion that promises them the truth.

Who knows maybe the Baha'i Faith exactly true? But if it is then I believe it makes all the other religions false. I don't see how Baha'i can support the beliefs and practices of any of the other religions. And they say the reason a new manifestation has to come is to correct the errors that have crept into the old religions. They alone have the truth for today. They have a plan to establish a new world order. They believe that they are doing the work that is necessary to bring that about. For the average Baha'i, that is to "educate" and teach others about how great and wonderful the Baha'i Faith is.

Here on the forum, they have a problem. They're not supposed to proselytize. So, they have to be creative on how to teach the word without sounding like they are preaching. But I don't think they are fooling anybody. They believe they are right and everybody else is wrong and needs to be "educated" as to what is the truth... That there is a God and he sent Baha'u'llah to bring us together in peace and harmony. Yet, why do so many of us don't believe them? Is it our fault? Our we blind? Or is it them? In their way of communicating what they believe to be a message from God.

 

[Trailblazer]

But the fact that they do not hold up as evidence by definition of the word "evidence", does.

They certainly do hold up, according to all the definitions of evidence..

Evidence: anything that helps to prove that something is or is not true: EVIDENCE | definition in the Cambridge English Dictionary

Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid: https://www.google.com/search

Evidence is anything that you see, experience, read, or are told that causes you to believe that something is true or has really happened.

 

[Polymath257]

I never claimed that God exists, Baha'u'llah claimed that God exists, so the burden of proof is on Him, not on me.

Well, he is dead, so cannot answer to queries. You seem to believe he had something relevant to say. What do you believe he said that makes you convinced he was a messenger from God?

Baha'u'llah provided evidence in support of His claims. The fact that you do not accept it as evidence does not make it non-evidence.

And his claim that it *is* evidence doesn't make it so.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why do atheists have to insult believers all the time? Do you see believers insulting atheists? No, we are constantly defending ourselves from their insults.

To be fair, not all atheists do this, but the ones who do want to ask themselves why they have to constantly criticize believers, calling them illogical, irrational, and emotionally needy. IMO, there is only one reason why atheists have to insult believers. They have to put believers down so they can raise themselves up. It is ego and the need to be right.

And it is not only over beliefs, it is over the meanings of words. Claim vs. belief, who cares? They only make a big deal out of this because they have to be right about everything. This is readily apparent to everyone except them.

There is a huge difference between disagreeing with believers and putting them down. People can disagree with other people respectfully. I disagree with atheists on the existence if God, but so what? I do not consider atheists inferior to me, they are just different.

“Consider the world of created beings, how varied and diverse they are in species, yet with one sole origin. All the differences that appear are those of outward form and colour. This diversity of type is apparent throughout the whole of nature.

Behold a beautiful garden full of flowers, shrubs, and trees. Each flower has a different charm, a peculiar beauty, its own delicious perfume and beautiful colour. The trees too, how varied are they in size, in growth, in foliage—and what different fruits they bear! Yet all these flowers, shrubs and trees spring from the self-same earth, the same sun shines upon them and the same clouds give them rain.....

Thus should it be among the children of men! The diversity in the human family should be the cause of love and harmony, as it is in music where many different notes blend together in the making of a perfect chord.....

Likewise, when you meet those whose opinions differ from your own, do not turn away your face from them. All are seeking truth, and there are many roads leading thereto. Truth has many aspects, but it remains always and forever one.

Do not allow difference of opinion, or diversity of thought to separate you from your fellow-men, or to be the cause of dispute, hatred and strife in your hearts.

Rather, search diligently for the truth and make all men your friends.”
Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, pp. 51-53

For the whole chapter: BEAUTY AND HARMONY IN DIVERSITY

 

[CG Didymus]

Upon cursory glance, it looks like most mystical writings: a lot of rather meaningless babble and a few general claims that are trivial. pretty much what I expect from a man-made religion.

It helps if a person already believes that there is a God. During the 70's, lots of people were looking for the truth. I assumed there was a God and when told about the Baha'i Faith, it made perfect sense to me. But it was more of a peace group back then. A peace group whose plan for peace came directly from God. Then a friend got "born-again" and told me the "truth". That Jesus is the only way and all that stuff. I hadn't read the Bible, so when I did. I found lots of contradictions between what these Christians were teaching and what the Baha'is were teaching. Then different Christians told me why those other Christians were wrong. After a while, I went to the Jews and found out why they don't believe in any of them. The thing I learned is anybody can say just about anything about the Bible or some religious Scriptures and make it sound like that is the right way and the truth. They all negate each other. The "babble" of one is the clear and profound truth to another. It's all in how they get "taught" or "indoctrinated" or "brainwashed". But to them, it is the truth. They know it. They believe it. And compelled to go share it.

Yes, they existed, were human, and made rather outrageous claims.

Why don't Baha'is believe this guy? Almost the same claim.

Mirzā Ghulām Ahmad (13 February 1835 – 26 May 1908) was an Indian religious leader and the founder of the Ahmadiyya movement in Islam. He claimed to have been divinely appointed as the promised Messiah and Mahdi—which is the metaphorical second-coming of Jesus
​

Actually, Mirza Husayn Ali, Baha'u'llah, claims a lot more.

Baha’u’llah is “the Promised One of all ages,” “the Dawning Point of the Day of God, the ‘Day in which God’s most excellent favors have been poured out upon men.” – The Universal House of Justice, Letter to the Baha’is of the World, April, 1992.

The Baha’i teachings claim that Baha’u’llah’s station culminates and fulfills all the past religious revelations. But Baha’u’llah has also inaugurated a new cycle of revelation, which does not end with his appearance. The Baha’i teachings say this process of progressive revelation will continue as long as the human race continues—and that humanity will continue to benefit from God’s message:

Baha’u’llah has drawn the circle of unity, He has made a design for the uniting of all the peoples, and for the gathering of them all under the shelter of the tent of universal unity. This is the work of the Divine Bounty, and we must all strive with heart and soul until we have the reality of unity in our midst, and as we work, so will strength be given unto us. – Abdu’l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 55.
​

 

[Trailblazer]

Well, he is dead, so cannot answer to queries. You seem to believe he had something relevant to say. What do you believe he said that makes you convinced he was a messenger from God?

It was not mostly what He said, it is who He was and what He did.
All that is delineated in the history of the Baha'i Faith.

And his claim that it *is* evidence doesn't make it so.

Of course not. Claims are not evidence of anything.

 

[CG Didymus]

What makes you think he actually said this? And if he did, what makes you think he was talking about morality and not something else?

He wasn't. Assuming that he did say it, it was about the Holy Spirit. Christians believe the Holy Spirit descended on the disciples on Pentecost. And Baha'is believe these verses were a prophecy about Baha'u'llah. Lots of assuming and making verses say what they want them to say.