Atheists: If God existed would God……

[Trailblazer]

It is evidence either way. If it is evidence and the conclusion is true, then it is evidence even if the conclusion is false. The truth or falsity of the conclusion doesn't affect whether something is evidence.

That is absolutely correct. The evidence brought forward by the prosecutor is evidence that the crime took place, regardless of the conclusion that the jurors come to.

What I present as evidence for Baha'u'llah is evidence whether you conclude it means that He is a Messenger of God or not.

Typically, I believe because I was convinced. So if I believe it was evidence, I was convinced it was evidence. And that means that there is some reason to think it is evidence. Otherwise, I have simply convinced myself that it is evidence.

There was *reason* for me to think it was evidence, otherwise I would not have concluded what I did.
When you say that "Otherwise, I have simply convinced myself that it is evidence" what you are implying is that it was not evidence, you just convinced yourself that it was evidence.

How is that relevant? it is evidence whether or not you are searching. And somehow you became convinced it *is/was* evidence.

You are correct again. It is evidence whether or not I was searching. And somehow I became convinced it *is/was* evidence.

The reason I said I was not even searching for God or a religion is because you said: "You became convinced by what you convinced yourself to be evidence." I was trying to point out that I was not trying to convince myself that it was evidence because I did not really care if it was or not. I became convinced only because the evidence was so compelling to me.

 

[Trailblazer]

I understand you don't like this. But this is part of the community interaction of debate forums. The reason we criticize your comments and patterns of behavior is to help you understand the problems of your thinking and belief.

I do not care one way or another what you say about me because I know I have no 'problems' in my thinking or belief.

No, personal criticism does not have to be part of the community interaction of debate forums.
I do not see other atheists needing to resort to personal criticisms to hold their ground in a debate, only you and one other atheist. What does that say about you two?

That you keep pushing back and repeating the behaviors illustrate you want to keep the dialog open.

I do not want to keep any dialog going with you because I realized a long time ago that you cannot stay on topic but rather you have to resort to personal criticisms. I have plenty of atheists to talk to who do not exhibit this offensive behavior and I enjoy talking to them. For me it has never been about the differences in our beliefs and trying to prove I am right and atheists are wrong. I am just trying to have a fruitful discussion about the subject at hand, not about what you perceive to be my personal shortcomings.

 

[Trailblazer]

And this test MUST be very high, like there being predictions that are clear, and also very, very specific.

Baha'u'llah made many such predictions. Although He never offered that is proof that He was a Messenger of God it has been convincing to some people and it is 'part' of the evidence.

Baha’u’llah predicted many things that later came to pass. In this book, which can be read online, is a list of 30 specific things Baha’u’llah predicted that later came to pass: The Challenge of Baha'u'llah

Not only that, but everything that He predicted would happen is coming to pass all over the world right now, at an ever-increasing pace. The old world order is being rolled up and a new world order is being spread out in its stead. It is all over the news, day in day out, but only the Baha'is know what set it in motion and where it will lead.

“Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 7

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm not an atheist. You are often illogical, irrational and you lack the ability to think critically. I also believe that you are addicted to this type of communication (forums) with others.

I do not care what you think about me. You have no evidence to back uo any of your allegations, only a personal opinion.

As I had guessed the only reason you came to this thread was to criticize me. You just cannot control yourself. You have to follow me and criticize me.

You do not know what I am addicted to because you are not God.
I think you are the one who is addicted to this behavior because it is blatantly obvious that you cannot control yourself. You seek me out on every thread I start.

It is obvious that you do not follow the teachings of Jesus. Not even one Christian on this forum behaves as you do, criticizing me constantly. In fact, even though some of our beliefs differ, not one Christian ever criticizes me personally. That should tell you something but I doubt that it does.

Matthew 7:3-5 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

44. O Companion of My Throne!
Hear no evil, and see no evil, abase not thyself, neither sigh and weep. Speak no evil, that thou mayest not hear it spoken unto thee, and magnify not the faults of others that thine own faults may not appear great; and wish not the abasement of anyone, that thine own abasement be not exposed. Live then the days of thy life, that are less than a fleeting moment, with thy mind stainless, thy heart unsullied, thy thoughts pure, and thy nature sanctified, so that, free and content, thou mayest put away this mortal frame, and repair unto the mystic paradise and abide in the eternal kingdom forevermore. The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh

 

[F1fan]

Baha'u'llah made many such predictions. Although He never offered that is proof that He was a Messenger of God it has been convincing to some people and it is 'part' of the evidence.

Baha’u’llah predicted many things that later came to pass. In this book, which can be read online, is a list of 30 specific things Baha’u’llah predicted that later came to pass: The Challenge of Baha'u'llah

I spent about 30 minutes looking over this link and it is poorly organized and written. I find nothing very interesting or profound in it. I'm not sure who put that website together but it's not very well done. Even the predictions are so vague they could be interpreted to mean anything, which is typical of predictions. No names or specific events with dates.

Not only that, but everything that He predicted would happen is coming to pass all over the world right now, at an ever-increasing pace. The old world order is being rolled up and a new world order is being spread out in its stead. It is all over the news, day in day out, but only the Baha'is know what set it in motion and where it will lead.

“Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 7

The interpretation in black here is clearer than the prediction in red, and that means there is information added. It doesn't explain what a new world order is. And there is no date. It's wide open for interpretation. Not good enough.[/quote][/QUOTE]

 

[ppp]

Logically speaking, there can only be one true God who created the universe because an omnipotent/omniscient God does not need any helpels.

Not needing anyone else does not negate the possibility of there being anyone else. There could be ten beings who are all omniscient and omnipotent who collaborate.

 

[CG Didymus]

The problem is that the supposed watering hole is undetectable and magical. It's indistinguishable from a non-existing watering hole. Kind of hard to drink from a watering hole that can't be distinguished from one that doesn't exist.

As if all theists believe in the same God. Jesus has a fountain of living water, but how do you find it when a Catholic, an Evangelical Protestant, a Pentacostal, a Mormon, a Jehovah Witness, a Calvinist etc, all take you to a different watering hole. And their watering holes are nowhere near the Baha'i watering hole.

But, then again, I can how a person can immerse themselves in the "truths" of any religion and feel as if they are refreshed. But it all depends on believing it is real. And, when it comes down to it, most all religions deny the other ones in some ways.

 

[F1fan]

Not needing anyone else does not negate the possibility of there being anyone else. There could be ten beings who are all omniscient and omnipotent who collaborate.

Actually the Hindu system does have multiple gods that have their own tasks and responsibilities. Brahma is the creator and Vishnu is the sustainer god

 

[ppp]

Actually the Hindu system does have multiple gods that have their own tasks and responsibilities. Brahma is the creator and Vishnu is the sustainer god

Right!? Just because one god could do a thing does not mean that only one god did that thing. Or that any gods at all did it.

 

[CG Didymus]

You didn't explain anything.
You just repeated your bare denial claim.

What was the cause of cancers and germ based disease before humans existed?
And how was the allmighty creator of everything not involved in that?



I asked you every time and instead of answers all I got was personal attacks and irrational defense shields.

If the planet were alive, would we be like a virus or parasite to it? And to microscopic things that need to eat and find a place to live, are we like their planet? Hold on a minute while I roll another one and come up with some more profound thoughts.

 

[Trailblazer]

I spent about 30 minutes looking over this link and it is poorly organized and written. I find nothing very interesting or profound in it. I'm not sure who put that website together but it's not very well done. Even the predictions are so vague they could be interpreted to mean anything, which is typical of predictions. No names or specific events with dates.

If you were interested you could conduct research and find the specific names and dates. Some other Baha'is on this forum are more familiar with these events than I am. I know some of them but not all of them because I never really cared much about predictions since I do not consider them the best kind of evidence

The interpretation in black here is clearer than the prediction in red, and that means there is information added. It doesn't explain what a new world order is. And there is no date. It's wide open for interpretation. Not good enough.

The black is what I wrote about what was predicted and what is going on in the world today, as Baha'u'llah had predicted it would. The red is vague and open to interpretation, but much has been written about the new world order and what Baha'is believe it is.

I think this blog written by a Baha'i is particularly good in describing what the new world order is.

Toward a New World Order?

Below are some of the many articles on the new world order.

3 Principles for Creating a New World Order
The New Stage of Humanity’s Development
We Live in Revolutionary Times—Why?
What Will the New World Order Look Like?

 

[CG Didymus]

He didn't provide any evidence? He got all the science wrong? What was his evidence?

Having gotten his science wrong is kind of like evidence that he isn't an infallible messenger from God.

 

[Trailblazer]

Not needing anyone else does not negate the possibility of there being anyone else. There could be ten beings who are all omniscient and omnipotent who collaborate.

No, not needing anyone else does not negate the possibility of there being anyone else.
I was only telling you what makes logical sense to me. It makes no sense to me that there would be ten beings who are all omniscient and omnipotent who collaborate. Why would there be a need for more than one all-powerful God? If all of them knew everything why would they need to collaborate?

But you are free to believe anything you want to believe about God or gods.

 

[CG Didymus]

Well how convenient for the Messanger. This doesn't make you suspicious at all?


How does God reward them?
Am I denied this because I am skeptical of the evidence and guarded against false prophets?

I thought the reward was being saved, getting eternal life and going to be in heaven? Are there new rewards? Oh, and is God still offering 70 virgins?

 

[ppp]

No, not needing anyone else does not negate the possibility of there being anyone else.
I was only telling you what makes logical sense to me. It makes no sense to me that there would be ten beings who are all omniscient and omnipotent who collaborate. Why would there be a need for more than one all-powerful God? If all of them knew everything why would they need to collaborate?

I don't see a need for any gods, omnipotent or otherwise. But if there is one, there may as well be 10,000. It's all the same.
But you are free to believe any fool thing you want to believe about a god or gods.

 

[F1fan]

If you were interested you could conduct research and find the specific names and dates. Some other Baha'is on this forum are more familiar with these events than I am. I know some of them but not all of them because I never really cared much about predictions since I do not consider them the best kind of evidence

This points out another problem, why is it requiring people to dig through text and try to find the good nuggets of huge significance? Did the prophet not understand that there would be skepticism and he should make a set of very clear, concise, and accurate predictions in one list?

Let's say Baha'i are correct in what they believe about their messenger, that the texts are so poorly organized, and too wordy and vague, is a huge error, and a reason why many are turned off.

Show me one good prophesy that names a name and has a date and it is clearly worded. I'll be impressed. I dislike these vague and wordy predictions, and I refuse to help these guys be correct if they can't do better at prediction.

The black is what I wrote about what was predicted and what is going on in the world today, as Baha'u'llah had predicted it would. The red is vague and open to interpretation, but much has been written about the new world order and what Baha'is believe it is.

OK, vague and open to interpretation is an extremely poor way to present prophesy. Rational minds reject it if there is a lack of clarity. Our job is not to guess what prophets meant.

I think this blog written by a Baha'i is particularly good in describing what the new world order is.

Toward a New World Order?

Below are some of the many articles on the new world order.

3 Principles for Creating a New World Order
The New Stage of Humanity’s Development
We Live in Revolutionary Times—Why?
What Will the New World Order Look Like?

If believers are chiming in with their beliefs (why would we care, why is it needed?) then what use is a prophet? The whole point of prophesy is that it predicts the future, and anyone can understand it.

 

[CG Didymus]

The unanswered question for me and I expect some others is whether you did what most faith-based thinkers do, which is to choose to believe an insufficiently supported belief and then retrofit it with something that you call evidence despite it not being used to arrive at that belief, or whether you were actually convince by what you call evidence. It hardly matters, because the result is the same. If the latter is the case, your belief is actually a conclusion however unsound. If it is the former, the commoner case, then what is being done is offering a premise as a conclusion, or what I call a pseudo-conclusion, since it preceded the evidence and thus is not derived from it as an actual conclusion is, however soundly or unsoundly.

Awesome stuff. When I first was told about Christianity, the Baha'i Faith and others, I already assumed there was a God. So, it was just a matter of being convinced which religion made the most sense. I ended up having problems with all of them.

 

[ppp]

Awesome stuff. When I first was told about Christianity, the Baha'i Faith and others, I already assumed there was a God. So, it was just a matter of being convinced which religion made the most sense. I ended up having problems with all of them.

Me too. And even afterwards, I assumed o was missing something obvious.

 

[F1fan]

Me too. And even afterwards, I assumed o was missing something obvious.

I was 8 and I kept asking why are we going to church. I was just a kid and didn't understand, but I had a sense something was very fishy about it all.

 

[rational experiences]

Natural first. Always.

No such first natural condition new world order. It is man's owned first scientific propaganda.

Cult group science design brothers agreed design building.

Tribal first heavens natural mass. Earth natural mass. Two one natural bodies. Earth heavens Cooling amassing natural by saviour ice cooling.

Ice cooling water. Ice cooling gases.

Extra amassing spreading by cold cooling natural heavens is not owned by men.

Men imposed order compliance by structure civilization to own son king status.

Previous tribal status men women ended human council were grand parents great grand parents.

Great Counsellors.

Human natural family.

The high priest designer scientist inventor leader first. Men hierarchy science leader with lower agreed group. New world status cult.

Stated son king leader.

Spirit akashic records said sons murdered their holy father.

Real.