Atheists: If God existed would God……

[Truthseeker]

They use oneness of God and Messengers but then go interpreting Quran as if God is a big deceiver to humanity.

Why do you get that impression? Is it possible you do not understand Qur'an, but Baha'u'llah does? All the rest is just our personal interpretations, and of course they can be wrong.

 

[Trailblazer]

Regardless of subject matter, you would have to know what constitutes as actual evidence and what does not constitute as evidence before you can claim to have evidence of something. One would have to know that in order to claim to have evidence. You, evidenced by the deceitful way that you claim to have evidence of something, goes to show that you must take posters here to be fools, and that shows a lack of character on your part.

What is actual evidence? I believe I have actual evidence and you do not believe it is actual evidence. We disagree. There is nowhere to do with this.

Atheists act as if there is this magic thing called actual evidence, but it is just what you imagine should exist. What is actual evidence to me is not actual evidence to you. Most atheists figure this out pretty quickly and the discussion ends.

It is not my fault that atheists keep asking me for evidence. It is not my fault you do not consider what I offer as evidence. Once you realize that I don't have what you want you should drop the subject and move on. I cannot give you something I do not have.

I gave all the atheists a chance to tell me what would be evidence for God, since you do not consider Messengers to be evidence.

Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

 

[Trailblazer]

That's a bad strike against evidence for God, as universities teach facts and knowledge.

That statement was completely illogical.
God is not a fact so God is not going to be taught at a university.
But that does not mean that God does not exist.

Knowledge about God comes from only one source, Messengers of God.

 

[Trailblazer]

And you presume to know the truth they need or want?

No, of course not. I am just having discussions with them and they lead wherever they lead.
At least they go somewhere. I learn something and they learn something. You are too busy assessing me to have any fruitful discussion about God.

 

[Trailblazer]

This is reactionary. So we get under your skin?

There is nothing reactionary about it. I was just explaining my position.
You get under my skin when you talk about me constantly instead of discussing the subject at hand, and it is all critical. Look around. Most atheists don't do this.

 

[CG Didymus]

Everybody has a different take on lots of things .. and G-d knows why !

So who has the truth? Christians, Muslims or Baha'is? Each does have a different take on it. But we are talking about the truth about God and the truth to who his true messengers are. If religious people can't agree, then why expect Atheists to believe anybody from any of those religions? They all believe something different.

 

[ppp]

What is actual evidence? I believe I have actual evidence and you do not believe it is actual evidence. We disagree. There is nowhere to do with this.

What you offer as actual evidence are merely statements of what you believe.

 

[CG Didymus]

I'm not convinced. Try again. Use credible evidence, not your belief.

I have a bigger problem with who the Baha'is say are messengers/manifestations. Did Moses and Muhammad see themselves as manifestations? Did Abraham? Then Baha'is might include Adam and Noah as manifestations. Nothing in the Bible stories looks as if they were, especially Adam. And, of course on top of that, were they even real. Then we have Zoroaster. Not much is said about him. But then we have Buddha and Krishna. Not much about them in the Baha'i writings except to call them manifestations. With Buddha, did he consider himself a manifestation? Then with Krishna, assuming he was real, he was supposedly an incarnation of one of the Hindu Gods.

But how does anyone prove any of this? But it makes sense to those that join the Baha'i Faith. And that is proof enough, and It makes sense... to them. To me, it makes more sense that people made up Gods, Goddesses, and God/men. And told legends of all their exploits. Like where would Jesus be if they didn't claim he was virgin born, walked on water, and rose from the dead? Those stories, because they were told as if they were real, made Jesus a God.

 

[CG Didymus]

You merely believe you have evidence, which only goes to show that you are indeed trying to convince yourself.

Some of us tried to believe in one religion or another. If it was Christianity, our foundation of truth was the Bible. And a particular interpretation of the Bible. That was our proof. As long as we "believed" it was the truth, nobody was going to shake our faith. But I couldn't keep believing the Bible, especially a particular interpretation of the Bible, was true. Not an easy thing to admit to oneself that what they thought was true wasn't. So, I can see why some people hold on to their beliefs and refuse to accept that they might be wrong.

 

[ppp]

As I have explained before, the Messengers of God are not ordinary human beings. They have a twofold nature, a physical nature and a spiritual nature.

You have not explained this. You have merely stated that it is true.

 

[CG Didymus]

And you are succeeding.

If the Baha'i Faith is true, it is supposed to be convincing us of the truth, that God is one, religion is one and humanity is one. But no, because Baha'is are only people, they find ways to muck up God's message.

 

[CG Didymus]

Still no explanation of use.


The universe acts like a big dumb object. Bless its heart. I don't see any use for God there. Can we fire him? Is it a union job?

God sends messengers with vague messages that contradict each other. Then God does try to clean up the mess. He sends plagues, earthquakes and famines to get people on the right track. And so it is with the Baha'i message. The people of the Earth rejected his messenger, so now he is going to cause such misery and grief that people will have no choice but to listen to the message. What a loving and just God. Aren't we blessed.

 

[CG Didymus]

Is this why God creates some children with genetic defects that cause cancers, so the child can return to God sooner than the usual lifespan?


Then why are some healthy and live long lives while others die young due to natural diseases? Is God impatient to see some return to him? Explain.

It's almost like everything is so random, and there is no God. I watch some of those nature shows once in a while. They have the animals trying to cross a river and sure enough... one gets picked off by a crocodile. Or worse, the newly hatched sea turtles scampering to the water as sea gulls swoop down on them. Did God know which ones were born to be bird food and which ones would make it? It looks pretty random.

Like a baby human. Just bad luck that the mother's egg had some defect. And the one little sperm out of the millions that fertilized it didn't help the situation but made it worse. Tough luck? Or God's plan for that child?

 

[nPeace]

They're fun though.

Entertaining you mean? Better than watching monkeys at a zoo.

 

[nPeace]

It's almost like everything is so random, and there is no God. I watch some of those nature shows once in a while. They have the animals trying to cross a river and sure enough... one gets picked off by a crocodile. Or worse, the newly hatched sea turtles scampering to the water as sea gulls swoop down on them. Did God know which ones were born to be bird food and which ones would make it? It looks pretty random.

Like a baby human. Just bad luck that the mother's egg had some defect. And the one little sperm out of the millions that fertilized it didn't help the situation but made it worse. Tough luck? Or God's plan for that child?

Diseases look random. Murders look random. Suicides look random.
Does that mean that's the way it was supposed to be?

The universe is organized. Earth's orbit is organized. The orbit of the sun, moon, and stars are organized. The function of the cell is organized. God's people are organized.

So could it be the random chaos is so because of something going wrong? Cause and effect.
Could it be, it's just a matter of finding out the cause? Could it be, most people prefer to ignore the cause, which is already known?

 

[nPeace]

God sends messengers with vague messages that contradict each other. Then God does try to clean up the mess. He sends plagues, earthquakes and famines to get people on the right track. And so it is with the Baha'i message. The people of the Earth rejected his messenger, so now he is going to cause such misery and grief that people will have no choice but to listen to the message. What a loving and just God. Aren't we blessed.

If that's the Bahai's message, why listen to it?
Is it not a true we need to examine the facts to determine if there is any truth to the claims?

Remember, Jesus warned of false prophets.
So assuming that Jesus is correct, and he was a true prophet, then we cannot conclude that God is the way we describe, based on what we get from anyone making claims.

We need to be sure that we are dealing with Gods messengers. Only then would our description of God be correct.
Right now you are describing your own idea of a god to mock, but not the one true God Jesus described.

I am about to create the thread, to address your questions. If you have any more questions to add here, I would be more than happy to address them.
I'll give you a mention in the post.. So hopefully you won't miss it.

 

[Trailblazer]

What you offer as actual evidence are merely statements of what you believe.

No, that is not true. I believe what I do BECAUSE of the evidence but the evidence is not what I believe. That's ridiculous. Beliefs are not evidence.

 

[Trailblazer]

You have not explained this. You have merely stated that it is true.

I have explained it numerous times and I posted the passage that explains it.

Manifestations of God are a different order of creation than ordinary men because they have a twofold nature that ordinary humans do not possess. They got their spiritual nature before they were born into this world since their souls had preexistence in the spiritual world.

God has conferred upon the Messengers of God a spiritual nature that other humans do not possess:

“Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself. To this testifieth the tradition: “Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with God. I am He, Himself, and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is.” …. The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.” “Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 66-67

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Perhaps the clouds are preventing you from seeing that you are flat out wrong.
Condescendence noted.

And still no clarification...........................................

 

[nPeace]

Was he a man made into a God? A manifestation of God like Baha'is say? Is he, himself, coming back or just the "spirit" of Christ in a different messenger? Did he die on the cross? Did he physically come back to life? Everybody has a different take on all of these questions.

I'm still lost CG. I keep asking, but you do not answer.
I'll ask again, and hope you be fair, and answer.
Why does the fact that people disagree, make you think that changes anything, or should be our focus, rather than focusing on finding out the truth?

Every scientists have "a different take" on the origin of life, evolution, etc. What does that mean to you... that they are all wrong, and so, you don't need to hear anything they believe.

You've gotten me more curious than ever, on what you believe. What do you believe about God; truth; finding answers to life's questions...?