Atheists only - Any use in prayer?

[Scarlett Wampus]

For atheists only or those who are just wearing their atheist hat today:-

Could you see any use in prayer feeling that no god is there to listen?

To open the question further, if there are no supernatural causes, what traditional religious practices would still serve a useful purpose?

 

[Willamena]

I find talking to myself very comforting (if that counts). I'm my own best company.

(The interesting part was that one time myself talked to me.)

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

From 3 months ago ... a beautiful perspective on prayer

 

[MSizer]

There's very solid evidence that meditation can help lower stress levels, and many consider meditation prayer. There's also of course that statistical evidence about how religious people tend to be happier than non-religious. I can't deny that most people who choose to pray surely believe they are being heard, so I think there's probably merit to saying prayer can be beneficial to the one doing the praying, maybe even to those near that person who benefit from that person's improved daily mode of conduct, but I think that's where prayer's value stops.

 

[Storm]

For atheists only or those who are just wearing their atheist hat today:-

My views on prayer are indistinguishable from the average atheist, so I hope the "atheist hat" clause means I can participate.

Could you see any use in prayer feeling that no god is there to listen?

Yes and no.

I think prayer can serve a purpose as a kind of self-therapy. You basically talk things through with yourself, and it can be highly beneficial. It can provide closure, peace of mind, help you reach a difficult decision, yadda yadda yadda.

However, I don't do it myself, partly because I see a therapist regularly. More importantly, God "hears" me, yes, but it's not paying any special attention to me, so why address it when I talk to myself?

To open the question further, if there are no supernatural causes, what traditional religious practices would still serve a useful purpose?

I can't think of a single one that doesn't feed our need for ritual, at the very least, so I'd have to say all of them.

 

[rojse]

For atheists only or those who are just wearing their atheist hat today:-

Could you see any use in prayer feeling that no god is there to listen?

To open the question further, if there are no supernatural causes, what traditional religious practices would still serve a useful purpose?

Prayer could be useful to vent your emotions and frustrations.

 

[richardlowellt]

There's also of course that statistical evidence about how religious people tend to be happier than non-religious.

You of course are now obligated to produce that statistical evidence that religious people tend to be happier than non-religious. Thanks

 

[rojse]

There's also of course that statistical evidence about how religious people tend to be happier than non-religious.

You of course are now obligated to produce that statistical evidence that religious people tend to be happier than non-religious. Thanks

At the bottom of each post, there is a button with the words "quote" on it. If you use that, it makes it much easier to converse with another poster.

 

[Scarlett Wampus]

You of course are now obligated to produce that statistical evidence that religious people tend to be happier than non-religious. Thanks

There is a thread about such things. Have a look.

Re: Talking it out, shouldn't underestimate the usefulness of that - especially if times are hard and there's no one to speak to, god or otherwise. You, your troubles and a dictaphone are likely to have a much better discussion than you'd get from most of the people you know.

Also, with the venting of frustrion, that made me think of when matters are so overwhelming that asking out loud, "What can I do?" seems to be all you can do. Its an open question - its realising your approach is wrong and its time to let it go. After that things often get clearer, or at the least benefit from the consolation of acceptance.

JS your link to this:-

To pray is to take notice of the wonder, to regain a sense of the mystery that animates all beings, the divine margin in all attainments. Prayer is our humble answer to the inconceivable surprise of living. It is all we can offer in return for the mystery by which we live. Who is worthy to be present at the constant unfolding of time?

- Abraham Joshua Heschel

That was powerful.

 

[Sunstone]

For atheists only or those who are just wearing their atheist hat today:-

Could you see any use in prayer feeling that no god is there to listen?

I don't see a purpose to prayer that cannot be better served by certain kinds of meditation, except for the rather trivial purpose of praising an improbable deity. In fact, I'm inclined to believe that even the most profound prayer is essentially escapist -- as are some kinds of meditation.

 

[Tiapan]

Talking to oneself, I thought was the first sign of madness, prayers are for madmen.

Cheers

 

[linwood]

For atheists only or those who are just wearing their atheist hat today:-

Could you see any use in prayer feeling that no god is there to listen?

I see a use in it.
I have my own rituals that let me focus my mind and see myself through the eyes of others.

To open the question further, if there are no supernatural causes, what traditional religious practices would still serve a useful purpose?

I can think of religious practices that serve useful purposes.
I just find most of them morally repugnant.

Many Christian family structures do hold families together.
The price often paid for that "usefulness" is what I find repugnant.

 

[Alceste]

Some Irish novel I read ages ago introduced me to the phrase "offer it up", a Catholic thing about giving weighty problems you can't do anything about to God to sort out. (Actually, a quick browse of Catholics talking about "offering it up" reveals they do it with petty annoyances too, and there's no "sorting out" involved. I like the book's version better. At least, I like what I thought the book was saying better.)

Anyway, the phrase reminds me of something I do, so it stuck in my head as a good description. When it comes to things like fear, anger, pain and despair, "letting go" just isn't as effective a concept as "handing it over". If I just let that stuff go, it'll be floating around out there somewhere forever, unresolved. If I place it in the care of a dynamic, omnipotent and benevolent personality, I feel better knowing it's being resolved.

It makes no difference that I understand this is a throwback to early childhood, when mum or dad took care of all the really big problems, or that I know if anything's going to get sorted out this way it'll be some hidden facet of my own psychology doing the sorting. It's a very effective healing method all the same. When I'm wide open to it, it can be cathartic and explosive. It works as well with overwhelming awe and wonder.

 

[Amill]

I say a few things to myself every now and then, trying to wish things to come true, but at the same time I know that there's no reason to do it. I don't see a positive use for it at all, or at least it hasn't ever made me feel better about things. I guess I do it to try and get any kind of "good luck" I can in certain situations.

 

[Scarlett Wampus]

It makes no difference that I understand this is a throwback to early childhood, when mum or dad took care of all the really big problems, or that I know if anything's going to get sorted out this way it'll be some hidden facet of my own psychology doing the sorting. It's a very effective healing method all the same. When I'm wide open to it, it can be cathartic and explosive. It works as well with overwhelming awe and wonder.

I suspect it might make a difference if you associated the habit of “offering it up” with something you deem to be negative rather than neutral to positive. Example:-

You have the mental framework that such a thing may relates to deeply laid traits stemming from childhood and/or that there are subconscious & unconscious processes of thought that sometimes just need the room to do their thing without interference from what is currently pre-occupying conscious thought. These explanations are neutral to positive (and well supported imo).

What if your mental framework was that such a thing is due to a learnt helplessness engendered in you by authoritarian cultural & social attitudes intended to weaken your sense of autonomy and/or that it represented a destructive fragmentation of your psyche where traits of your personality such as dynamism, wisdom and benevolence reside outside your conscious identity as a woman because you've been unwittingly conditioned to associate them as masculine. Imagine that for a moment. Would it still feel good to offer up?

Incidentally something like the above was suggested to my mother by a friend embarrassed by her offering it up at a Pagan holy well...ascribed to the earth Goddess.

Anyway, what I was thinking, reading the thread this morning, is that many practices associated with religious tradition will tend to have negative associations despite the fact they can also be areligious or framed in a way that fits a naturalistic worldview. Prayer is perhaps not a good example because it generally means appealing to the supernatural.

I pray for guidance sometimes and it generally helps me sort myself out. My atheist side sees it as a creative process – the answer comes from my inventive intuition. My apophatic side sees it as a practical process – the answer just comes but from fuzzy I-know-not-what. My sort-of-theist side sees it as a relational process – the answer comes from something I'm part of that is greater than myself.

In reply to Sunstone, would you also deem this escapist? I view it as escaping my habitual behaviour & perspective maybe but there is no magical altering of outside circumstances to my favour.

 

[monta]

If they make people feel better I say have at it, and I like the poetry of some prayers, especially the vaguely pagan Irish ones

 

[Sunstone]

I pray for guidance sometimes and it generally helps me sort myself out. My atheist side sees it as a creative process – the answer comes from my inventive intuition. My apophatic side sees it as a practical process – the answer just comes but from fuzzy I-know-not-what. My sort-of-theist side sees it as a relational process – the answer comes from something I'm part of that is greater than myself.

In reply to Sunstone, would you also deem this escapist? I view it as escaping my habitual behaviour & perspective maybe but there is no magical altering of outside circumstances to my favour.

No, I wouldn't see that sort of prayer as escapist. I didn't take that sort of prayer into account when I said all prayer strikes me as escapist. But I think you've given an excellent example of prayer that is very likely not escapist.

 

[Caladan]

JS your link to this:-
"To pray is to take notice of the wonder, to regain a sense of the mystery that animates all beings, the divine margin in all attainments. Prayer is our humble answer to the inconceivable surprise of living. It is all we can offer in return for the mystery by which we live. Who is worthy to be present at the constant unfolding of time?"

- Abraham Joshua Heschel
That was powerful.

I agree. I do not pray during my everyday life, I live a secular life, but every once in a while, whether if I'm surrounded by nature, or staring at star filled night sky, I have a sense of awe and appreciation.

 

[Alceste]

I suspect it might make a difference if you associated the habit of “offering it up” with something you deem to be negative rather than neutral to positive. Example:-

You have the mental framework that such a thing may relates to deeply laid traits stemming from childhood and/or that there are subconscious & unconscious processes of thought that sometimes just need the room to do their thing without interference from what is currently pre-occupying conscious thought. These explanations are neutral to positive (and well supported imo).

What if your mental framework was that such a thing is due to a learnt helplessness engendered in you by authoritarian cultural & social attitudes intended to weaken your sense of autonomy and/or that it represented a destructive fragmentation of your psyche where traits of your personality such as dynamism, wisdom and benevolence reside outside your conscious identity as a woman because you've been unwittingly conditioned to associate them as masculine. Imagine that for a moment. Would it still feel good to offer up?

Authori-what-ian attitudes? Those are hard for me to imagine having. I suppose if I thought of the dynamic personality as a male, that could have some implications for my identity as a woman. My Christian friend seems to conceptualize her god as some great, omnipotent boyfriend. She's told me she feels much better after consulting with her gendered god on distressing issues.

I went through some hashing out of god gender issues as a teenager - I was at one point very cheesed off about my culture's most popular god being male, with no female alternative. I tried the "earth goddess" myself (as a metaphor, since I've never believed in any gods), but it felt just as made-up and ridiculous. The effective (and plausible enough to pass for the purpose of the exercise) god-concept that evolved out of that episode is not anthropomorphic, so gender just does not apply.

Incidentally something like the above was suggested to my mother by a friend embarrassed by her offering it up at a Pagan holy well...ascribed to the earth Goddess.

Well, since that's something I might have said myself at 18, when I was still cheesed off about all the things my redneck background had instilled about gender, it strikes me as a little immature.

I don't see how this exercise (offering it up) could work very well if you were neurotic about the gender or personality of the god-concept you're offering it up to, since it's actually you.

 

[FreshBananas]

The only good that comes of religon is the teaching of morals. So other than that religion has nothing useful to offer to anyone. I suppose that many also use religion as a kind of tool to help get past rough times but thats all it is a tool, and in my opinion the wrong tool.