Atheists Only: Would this be proof?

[gnomon]

See, to me, that would be far less compelling than my example. If the asteroid just suddenly disappeared, I'm pretty sure no one would even think to consider God's hand in it. That's something that people would certainly attribute to some natural phenomenon. To make any kind of experiment valid, you'd have to have some kind of a control group like I described.

I can agree with that.

I've actually been thinking about your question over the past two days. To be completely honest, if such a study were conducted and turned out the way you suggest, it would cause me to question the existence of some higher power over us. What that higher power could be....who knows?

I just know for me that if I witnessed a very large object spelling our imminent demise along with the rest of the world and that object just vanished....I would probably shave my head and hand out leaflets at the airport.

 

[lunamoth]

I don't know how I'd explain it. It would certainly seem miraculous to me, but it just seems to me that it wouldn't be a valid experiment if it was set up the way I described and then all of the people were healed. I would understand the reluctance of the skeptics to believe that God's will was involved more in this case than in the case where God apparently responded to the prayers of believers.

A god who only responded to the prayers of believers, and had no compassion for the other 250,000, would not be a god I'd find worth worshiping. I might be convinced of a supernatural power/consciousness that wants us to believe that God would act like that, but I would not have to conclude that it is the benevolent Creator God.

 

[Katzpur]

A god who only responded to the prayers of believers, and had no compassion for the other 250,000, would not be a god I'd find worth worshiping. I might be convinced of a supernatural power/consciousness that wants us to believe that God would act like that, but I would not have to conclude that it is the benevolent Creator God.

But Luna, that's the God you already believe in! I honestly have no idea how many people die worldwide in, let's say, a two week period, but for the sake of argument, let's say it's the same number I specified in my OP (i.e. 250,000). Are you saying that God has no compassion because He allowed those 250,000 people to die? People who do believe in God die every day, regardless of the prayers that are offered on their behalf. Why? Who's to say why some people live long lives and die peacefully after 90 good years and why others die slowly and in agony at a relatively young age. You and I both worship a God who allows all kinds of suffering to take place all the time -- and to innocent people.

 

[lunamoth]

But Luna, that's the God you already believe in! I honestly have no idea how many people die worldwide in, let's say, a two week period, but for the sake of argument, let's say it's the same number I specified in my OP (i.e. 250,000). Are you saying that God has no compassion because He allowed those 250,000 people to die? People who do believe in God die every day, regardless of the prayers that are offered on their behalf. Why? We can't say; we don't know why some people live long lives and die peacefully after 90 good years and why others die slowly and in agony at a relatively young age. You and I both worship a God who allows all kinds of suffering to take place all the time -- and to innocent people.

Exactly Katzpur. Which is why this experiment does not prove God as we know God to be. Bad things happen to good people...that is the way of the world and while I believe God to be of Supreme Compassion, still this is how our world goes.

If I put on my traditionalist Christian hat for a moment, the kind of experiment you propose is exactly what the story ofthe Fall describes: humans trying to overreach by their own efforts, trying to force the hand of God. Jesus didn't go for that one. He healed whoever He saw out of compassion. Why didn't he heal all people around the world while He was on earth? I don't know, but the lesson is: if we follow the example of Jesus, even if we don't heal the whole world, we do what we can within our sphere of influence. We love, care for, heal, and feed our neighbors.

 

[lunamoth]

But Luna, that's the God you already believe in! I honestly have no idea how many people die worldwide in, let's say, a two week period, but for the sake of argument, let's say it's the same number I specified in my OP (i.e. 250,000). Are you saying that God has no compassion because He allowed those 250,000 people to die? People who do believe in God die every day, regardless of the prayers that are offered on their behalf. Why? Who's to say why some people live long lives and die peacefully after 90 good years and why others die slowly and in agony at a relatively young age. You and I both worship a God who allows all kinds of suffering to take place all the time -- and to innocent people.

Please also let me say, I'm not trying to give you a hard time Katz. This is a very interesting thought experiment. :hug:

 

[lunamoth]

Doh! I've been following this thread for so long I lost sight of the fact that it is for atheists only!

Apologies Katzpur. If you wish to have my posts removed by the mods I certainly would understand. :sorry1:

 

[Aasimar]

Calling all atheists! :shout Okay, first off, I am not proselytizing, so don't bother getting out the boxing gloves. I couldn't care less that you don't believe in God (for the sake of argument, let's say the Abrahamic God). So, let's get that straight for starters. It's just that I've heard so many atheists say, "Give me proof and I'll believe in God." I don't even bother trying, because I know I can't prove that God exists. Whenever a theist does attempt to come up with proof, you guys refuse to accept it. I can't say that I blame you since I don't find their proof particularly compelling myself. Today, my husband and I were having a conversation that made me think about starting this thread. Basically, it had to do with prayer and with God's will.

I started wondering about a hypothetical, although impossible, situation that, in my opinion, could -- if it were feasible -- be considered proof of God's existence. Let's say we had a group of 500,000 people, all of whom were terminally ill and none of whom were in any way religious. They could be either agnostic or atheist, I suppose, but they definitely would not be the kind of people who would ever pray, asking that God heal them, nor would they solicit the prayers of others on their behalf. Let's assume that they were all close to death and resigned to the fact that the end was near. Now, let's say that these people were split into two groups of 250,000 each. The prayers of all Christians, Muslims and Jews throughout the world were offered up to God, pleading with Him to heal the dying individuals within the first of these two groups. No one, however would pray for anyone in the second group. Within a relatively short period of time (let's say two weeks), every single one of the 250,000 individuals for whom prayers were offered were "miraculously" healed. Without a single exception, all of them were as healthy as they'd been at any time in their lives. On the other hand, during this same period of time, every last one of the 250,000 who had not had anyone pray for them (and had not prayed for themselves) died, as had been expected.

Would these results, if they were exactly as I described them, possibly cause you to re-think you lack of belief in God? Would they, in other words, be sufficient to make you to believe in God? If not, to what would you attribute the results of the experiment? (Please don't start by telling me that such an experiment would be impossible to perform. I may be a theist, but I'm honestly not quite that stupid! Just pretend that we actually could do this experiment and come up with the results I stated and take it from there.)

Since this is not a debate forum, I'm just looking for answers. I may or may not come back with further thoughts of my own.

Assuming the test and results were legitimate, I would definitely have to think on my position. However, you do run into the whole unfalsifiability problem here, because even assuming everyone who was prayed for was miraculously cured, there's still no real way to verify that God cured them. That and there is the issue of tests of this nature previously performed that have failed to show any sign of divine intervention on behalf of the prayed for. A much better indicator would be a extraordinarily improbably event, such as an amputee rapidly regrowing a limb when prayed for. But I think anybody who just blew off the evidence here and said, still won't consider supernatural cause la la la after all natural explainations are exhausted would be just as bad a religious fundamentalist. Interesting question.

 

[Panda]

Calling all atheists! :shout Okay, first off, I am not proselytizing, so don't bother getting out the boxing gloves. I couldn't care less that you don't believe in God (for the sake of argument, let's say the Abrahamic God). So, let's get that straight for starters. It's just that I've heard so many atheists say, "Give me proof and I'll believe in God." I don't even bother trying, because I know I can't prove that God exists. Whenever a theist does attempt to come up with proof, you guys refuse to accept it. I can't say that I blame you since I don't find their proof particularly compelling myself. Today, my husband and I were having a conversation that made me think about starting this thread. Basically, it had to do with prayer and with God's will.

I started wondering about a hypothetical, although impossible, situation that, in my opinion, could -- if it were feasible -- be considered proof of God's existence. Let's say we had a group of 500,000 people, all of whom were terminally ill and none of whom were in any way religious. They could be either agnostic or atheist, I suppose, but they definitely would not be the kind of people who would ever pray, asking that God heal them, nor would they solicit the prayers of others on their behalf. Let's assume that they were all close to death and resigned to the fact that the end was near. Now, let's say that these people were split into two groups of 250,000 each. The prayers of all Christians, Muslims and Jews throughout the world were offered up to God, pleading with Him to heal the dying individuals within the first of these two groups. No one, however would pray for anyone in the second group. Within a relatively short period of time (let's say two weeks), every single one of the 250,000 individuals for whom prayers were offered were "miraculously" healed. Without a single exception, all of them were as healthy as they'd been at any time in their lives. On the other hand, during this same period of time, every last one of the 250,000 who had not had anyone pray for them (and had not prayed for themselves) died, as had been expected.

Would these results, if they were exactly as I described them, possibly cause you to re-think you lack of belief in God? Would they, in other words, be sufficient to make you to believe in God? If not, to what would you attribute the results of the experiment? (Please don't start by telling me that such an experiment would be impossible to perform. I may be a theist, but I'm honestly not quite that stupid! Just pretend that we actually could do this experiment and come up with the results I stated and take it from there.)

Since this is not a debate forum, I'm just looking for answers. I may or may not come back with further thoughts of my own.

It would make me have to rethink my entire belif structure. I don't know if it would convince me or not.

 

[Willamena]

I've actually been thinking about your question over the past two days. To be completely honest, if such a study were conducted and turned out the way you suggest, it would cause me to question the existence of some higher power over us. What that higher power could be....who knows?

I just know for me that if I witnessed a very large object spelling our imminent demise along with the rest of the world and that object just vanished....I would probably shave my head and hand out leaflets at the airport.

You don't watch enough Stargate SG-1.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I think the scenario would produce a few possibilities in my mind:

1. that the whole thing was faked. I do agree that this would take an inordinate amount of effort and secrecy that, while technically possible, is extremely improbable.
2. that the whole thing was a coincidence. Again, this is technically possible but extremely improbable.
3. that mental power, positive thinking or force of will of those praying healed the sick directly by some unknown mechanism.
4. that the knowledge that they were being prayed for encouraged the sick to heal themselves by some mental power, positive thinking or force of will, using some unknown mechanism.
5. that God healed the people by some unknown mechanism.


So... it might be argued that options 1 and 2 are so unlikely that they can be disregarded, but I can't see any compelling reason to choose option 5 over 3 or 4.

 

[Autodidact]

I think I asked this before, Katzpur, and don't remember an answer. If such a study found no difference in outcome between those prayed for and those not prayed for, would it cause you to re-think your beliefs?

 

[Smoke]

You don't watch enough Stargate SG-1.

Very few people do.

I'm surprised at how many of my fellow atheists are doggedly looking for loopholes, even to the point of blatantly disregarding Kat's scenario. In the unlikely event of that scenario, only the most stubbornly dogmatic atheist would refuse to admit that something remarkable was going on. It wouldn't prove that any particular religion was true; it wouldn't prove that God was beneficent or even that there was a personal God, but it would be a pretty clear indication that there was something about the worldview of theists that's remarkable and bears further investigation.

I discarded my theism when it no longer seemed plausible, and I'm prepared to discard my atheism in the event it ceases to be plausible. What's so hard about that?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Very few people do.

I'm surprised at how many of my fellow atheists are doggedly looking for loopholes, even to the point of blatantly disregarding Kat's scenario. In the unlikely event of that scenario, only the most stubbornly dogmatic atheist would refuse to admit that something remarkable was going on.

Certainly it would be something remarkable, but I still don't see what would lead a person to conclude that it must be God acting directly.

The only reason I can think of to disregard psychic abilities as the reason for this magical healing would be that psychic abilities don't normally show themselves this way, if at all... but the exact same argument applies to Godly miracles as well.

It wouldn't prove that any particular religion was true; it wouldn't prove that God was beneficent or even that there was a personal God, but it would be a pretty clear indication that there was something about the worldview of theists that's remarkable and bears further investigation.

It would say that there's something remarkable, but it isn't necessarily the worldview of theists.

Look back a few thousand years: in the days before refrigeration and knowledge of bacteria, keeping kosher presumably ensured that the Jews stayed generally healthier than the other people around them. Assuming we could take their food-handling procedures as correct, should we automatically assume that all other aspects of their religion are correct as well?

Just the same as we can now see that kosher food handling practices kept people safe by avoiding the health risks inherent in some food and not so much by appeasing God so he would protect them from evil with His own invisible hand, I think it's reasonable to think that, if the experiment did work, it was by some undiscovered natural method and not by the Hand of God.

 

[Smoke]

Look back a few thousand years: in the days before refrigeration and knowledge of bacteria, keeping kosher presumably ensured that the Jews stayed generally healthier than the other people around them. Assuming we could take their food-handling procedures as correct, should we automatically assume that all other aspects of their religion are correct as well?

Just the same as we can now see that kosher food handling practices kept people safe by avoiding the health risks inherent in some food and not so much by appeasing God so he would protect them from evil with His own invisible hand, I think it's reasonable to think that, if the experiment did work, it was by some undiscovered natural method and not by the Hand of God.

I'm not aware of any evidence that the ancient Israelites enjoyed unusually good health and longevity, or that such health and longevity as they did enjoy was due to kashruth. However, if that were true, it would have been a good idea to keep kosher even if one didn't understand why.

The scenario Kat proposes is considerably more remarkable. Given a choice between believing that there is a God of some sort and believing that theists are able to achieve a 100% success rate at healing cancer in others through some natural process involving positive thinking and spoken words, the proposition that there is a god of some sort seems more likely to me. That doesn't mean that even under those circumstances you should look for me in the choir.

 

[russellsteapot]

96 percent chimp

 

[Katzpur]

I think I asked this before, Katzpur, and don't remember an answer. If such a study found no difference in outcome between those prayed for and those not prayed for, would it cause you to re-think your beliefs?

No, it wouldn't, because it wouldn't actually prove anything. I would probably think that God chose not to participate in an experiment which was conceived of by human beings.

 

[EtuMalku]

I hope I am not reiterating what someone else has already said (I can't read through all these pages lol) but given that exact situation, it definitely would prove the existence of an Abrahamic God, after all what other God would let 250, 000 of His children die in order to prove a point?

 

[s2a]

No, it wouldn't, because it wouldn't actually prove anything. I would probably think that God chose not to participate in an experiment which was conceived of by human beings.

Just curious...why not?

Is HE too busy?

Is HE too proud?

Does HE have something to hide or conceal?

Has He never "granted" a prayerful beseechment as either a demonstration/confirmation of an adherent's personal faith?

Ronald Reagan once quipped:
"Trust...but verify".

Does god deem Himself as being beyond and above all measures of verification? If so, then what purpose do any of His (ever presently claimed) "miracles" serve? Does "God" intervene in the course of human events in direct "answer" (or response) to prayer, or not? If not by means of "divine intervention" and "miracles", how does "god" visibly manifest Himself (I mean personally, and not by delegating simple tasks to mere human capacities/abilities) in ways that "defy" all explanation or experimentation?

 

[Katzpur]

Just curious...why not?

God's in charge, that's why.

Is HE too busy?

Nope.

Is HE too proud?

Nope.

Does HE have something to hide or conceal?

Nope.

Has He never "granted" a prayerful beseechment as either a demonstration/confirmation of an adherent's personal faith?

Of course He has. I'm convinced that He has answered many of my prayers. But when He doesn't answer them -- or at least answer them in the way I would like -- I can assume one of two things: (1) He doesn't exist, or (2) He has His reasons. I'll go with #2 every time. While I totally believe He responds favorably to the prayers of a person who asks for something with true faith, that doesn't always mean that person will get what he asks for. In the situation I described in my OP, if God chose not to miraculously heal 100% of those who were prayed for, I would assume that there were reasons why God felt it best to not respond to those prayers by performing a miracle of the dimensions I described.

Does god deem Himself as being beyond and above all measures of verification? If so, then what purpose do any of His (ever presently claimed) "miracles" serve? Does "God" intervene in the course of human events in direct "answer" (or response) to prayer, or not? If not by means of "divine intervention" and "miracles", how does "god" visibly manifest Himself (I mean personally, and not by delegating simple tasks to mere human capacities/abilities) in ways that "defy" all explanation or experimentation?

My personal hunch would be that God doesn't like participating in contests, games or experiments, which is more or less what I described. He's not in the business of convincing people He exists by performing miracles. (Latter-day Saints would say, "Faith precedes the miracle." We don't believe it works the other way around.)

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

My personal hunch ...

It seems odd to have a 'personal hunch' concerning the personaliity of the supernatural.