Where Is God
Creator
No. Why would they only want half of the people to live? Religious people contradict their own religions.
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Atheists Only: Would this be proof?
- Thread starter Katzpur
- Start date
It would definitely be compelling evidence of God's existence. I'd be lying if I said it wouldn't effect my thoughts on the matter.
However, analytically speaking, what it really proves is that prayer is an effective mechanism for healing illness. It does not explain the way in which it does so-- whether it is the intervention of God or perhaps some positive energy force emanating from the prayer itself. Further studies, however, could tease apart the results: For example, you could perform the same experiment except that one group is prayed for and the other group is positively-thought-at (people think positive thoughts about them and wish them well and think about their illness going away). You could also have groups where only Yahweh or Allah or the FSM or Gaia is prayed to, to see whether it matters who or what the prayers are being directed to.
However, analytically speaking, what it really proves is that prayer is an effective mechanism for healing illness. It does not explain the way in which it does so-- whether it is the intervention of God or perhaps some positive energy force emanating from the prayer itself. Further studies, however, could tease apart the results: For example, you could perform the same experiment except that one group is prayed for and the other group is positively-thought-at (people think positive thoughts about them and wish them well and think about their illness going away). You could also have groups where only Yahweh or Allah or the FSM or Gaia is prayed to, to see whether it matters who or what the prayers are being directed to.
Ungrateful
Member
An experimental result as the OP suggests would make me rethink my views on god. In fact my denial has not really been about god, it's far more about the words of manipulative human beings.
Even then I would still have a lot of trouble believing he is as unjust as the Bible says. Punishing the entire human race for the sins of one couple? Love and worship him or suffer? hmmm...
Even then I would still have a lot of trouble believing he is as unjust as the Bible says. Punishing the entire human race for the sins of one couple? Love and worship him or suffer? hmmm...
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
In your desire to denegrade "religious people," you obviously missed the entire point of the question.
Good going.
waitasec
Veteran Member
even if the religious people were unaware that they were participating in an experiment...unaware of the other half not being prayed for...
it still wouldn't work..because it just doesn't work, it never has worked.
Mr Spinkles
Mr
Okay, this is a pet peeve of mine. You should not refuse to answer a hypothetical question because "it would never happen". That's the whole point -- it's a hypothetical question.
You should answer the hypothetical question before talking about the likelihood of its ever being realized. This is good practice for maintaining an objective and healthy mind.
If you could never even hypothetically admit you were wrong, how could you ever actually admit you were wrong?
waitasec
Veteran Member
sure i would believe it if that happened, who wouldn't?
Noaidi
slow walker
The above sums up my thinking on this.
It doesn't rule out the possible existence of a god, but it doesn't confirm it either.
Mr Spinkles
Mr
waitasec
Veteran Member
Noaidi
slow walker
gotcha...some people are more sensible than i...
Not all of us, though!
cablescavenger
Well-Known Member
Calling all atheists! :shout Okay, first off, I am not proselytizing, so don't bother getting out the boxing gloves. I couldn't care less that you don't believe in God (for the sake of argument, let's say the Abrahamic God). So, let's get that straight for starters. It's just that I've heard so many atheists say, "Give me proof and I'll believe in God." I don't even bother trying, because I know I can't prove that God exists. Whenever a theist does attempt to come up with proof, you guys refuse to accept it. I can't say that I blame you since I don't find their proof particularly compelling myself. Today, my husband and I were having a conversation that made me think about starting this thread. Basically, it had to do with prayer and with God's will.
I started wondering about a hypothetical, although impossible, situation that, in my opinion, could -- if it were feasible -- be considered proof of God's existence. Let's say we had a group of 500,000 people, all of whom were terminally ill and none of whom were in any way religious. They could be either agnostic or atheist, I suppose, but they definitely would not be the kind of people who would ever pray, asking that God heal them, nor would they solicit the prayers of others on their behalf. Let's assume that they were all close to death and resigned to the fact that the end was near. Now, let's say that these people were split into two groups of 250,000 each. The prayers of all Christians, Muslims and Jews throughout the world were offered up to God, pleading with Him to heal the dying individuals within the first of these two groups. No one, however would pray for anyone in the second group. Within a relatively short period of time (let's say two weeks), every single one of the 250,000 individuals for whom prayers were offered were "miraculously" healed. Without a single exception, all of them were as healthy as they'd been at any time in their lives. On the other hand, during this same period of time, every last one of the 250,000 who had not had anyone pray for them (and had not prayed for themselves) died, as had been expected.
Would these results, if they were exactly as I described them, possibly cause you to re-think you lack of belief in God? Would they, in other words, be sufficient to make you to believe in God? If not, to what would you attribute the results of the experiment? (Please don't start by telling me that such an experiment would be impossible to perform. I may be a theist, but I'm honestly not quite that stupid!
Since this is not a debate forum, I'm just looking for answers. I may or may not come back with further thoughts of my own.
You do not have to prove God. You have faith. God exists in your mind.
Atheists do not have to prove God, they have no faith. God does not exist in the mind of the atheist.
If God exists then God can prove it, and until that happens God will only ever exist in the minds of the religious.
Calling all atheists! :shout Okay, first off, I am not proselytizing, so don't bother getting out the boxing gloves. I couldn't care less that you don't believe in God (for the sake of argument, let's say the Abrahamic God). So, let's get that straight for starters. It's just that I've heard so many atheists say, "Give me proof and I'll believe in God." I don't even bother trying, because I know I can't prove that God exists. Whenever a theist does attempt to come up with proof, you guys refuse to accept it. I can't say that I blame you since I don't find their proof particularly compelling myself. Today, my husband and I were having a conversation that made me think about starting this thread. Basically, it had to do with prayer and with God's will.
I started wondering about a hypothetical, although impossible, situation that, in my opinion, could -- if it were feasible -- be considered proof of God's existence. Let's say we had a group of 500,000 people, all of whom were terminally ill and none of whom were in any way religious. They could be either agnostic or atheist, I suppose, but they definitely would not be the kind of people who would ever pray, asking that God heal them, nor would they solicit the prayers of others on their behalf. Let's assume that they were all close to death and resigned to the fact that the end was near. Now, let's say that these people were split into two groups of 250,000 each. The prayers of all Christians, Muslims and Jews throughout the world were offered up to God, pleading with Him to heal the dying individuals within the first of these two groups. No one, however would pray for anyone in the second group. Within a relatively short period of time (let's say two weeks), every single one of the 250,000 individuals for whom prayers were offered were "miraculously" healed. Without a single exception, all of them were as healthy as they'd been at any time in their lives. On the other hand, during this same period of time, every last one of the 250,000 who had not had anyone pray for them (and had not prayed for themselves) died, as had been expected.
Would these results, if they were exactly as I described them, possibly cause you to re-think you lack of belief in God? Would they, in other words, be sufficient to make you to believe in God? If not, to what would you attribute the results of the experiment? (Please don't start by telling me that such an experiment would be impossible to perform. I may be a theist, but I'm honestly not quite that stupid!
Since this is not a debate forum, I'm just looking for answers. I may or may not come back with further thoughts of my own.
Okay it has actually happened - exactly as you said! Two hundred and fifty thousand souls in the first group have been healed, and the fact of the matter has been soundly corroborated. No one can deny that a miracle or a very, very unique event has occurred. As a sceptic I've never been able to deny that a causal power is logically possible, even though I've thought it highly improbable, but as a result of this I must definitely consider the likelihood of some form of supernatural agency at work. But I'm not going to prostrate myself, as a grateful and unworthy supplicant, before this supernatural cause. As other contributors have already pointed out, the conditions under which this Being has intervened/not intervened in the material world, both historically and in this particular instance, do not inspire one to award the term worshipful.
But to slightly wander away from Katzpur's hypothesis, it must surely be the case that God, if he chooses, can make me believe in him. It is not necessary for there to be miraculous events that contradict the uniformity of nature; nor is required of me to describe how God might provide such evidence, since where we have proof of p it follows that we have evidence of p. But that statement must be qualified, for even if the proof is entirely sufficient for me to belief in God, it doesnt follow from my belief that God exists is true, because 'True for me' is only a value relativism and not a genuine concept of truth.
"... {X}exists’ is true, because 'True for me' is only a value relativism and not a genuine concept of truth."
Rather like vivid hallucinations and otherwise irrational thoughts caused by tumors and chemical imbalance in the brain are perceived as "true" relative to the individual in whom the anomaly occurs but should not be universally accepted as a general concept of truth.
I could not agree more!
Rather like vivid hallucinations and otherwise irrational thoughts caused by tumors and chemical imbalance in the brain are perceived as "true" relative to the individual in whom the anomaly occurs but should not be universally accepted as a general concept of truth.
I could not agree more!
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if everything was legit i suppose sooo yeah. but then again is it anything more then proof of the power of intention/attention? I would definitely have to reevaluate everything i know....ohhh and the test would have to be replicable..Calling all atheists! :shout Okay, first off, I am not proselytizing, so don't bother getting out the boxing gloves. I couldn't care less that you don't believe in God (for the sake of argument, let's say the Abrahamic God). So, let's get that straight for starters. It's just that I've heard so many atheists say, "Give me proof and I'll believe in God." I don't even bother trying, because I know I can't prove that God exists. Whenever a theist does attempt to come up with proof, you guys refuse to accept it. I can't say that I blame you since I don't find their proof particularly compelling myself. Today, my husband and I were having a conversation that made me think about starting this thread. Basically, it had to do with prayer and with God's will.
I started wondering about a hypothetical, although impossible, situation that, in my opinion, could -- if it were feasible -- be considered proof of God's existence. Let's say we had a group of 500,000 people, all of whom were terminally ill and none of whom were in any way religious. They could be either agnostic or atheist, I suppose, but they definitely would not be the kind of people who would ever pray, asking that God heal them, nor would they solicit the prayers of others on their behalf. Let's assume that they were all close to death and resigned to the fact that the end was near. Now, let's say that these people were split into two groups of 250,000 each. The prayers of all Christians, Muslims and Jews throughout the world were offered up to God, pleading with Him to heal the dying individuals within the first of these two groups. No one, however would pray for anyone in the second group. Within a relatively short period of time (let's say two weeks), every single one of the 250,000 individuals for whom prayers were offered were "miraculously" healed. Without a single exception, all of them were as healthy as they'd been at any time in their lives. On the other hand, during this same period of time, every last one of the 250,000 who had not had anyone pray for them (and had not prayed for themselves) died, as had been expected.
Would these results, if they were exactly as I described them, possibly cause you to re-think you lack of belief in God? Would they, in other words, be sufficient to make you to believe in God? If not, to what would you attribute the results of the experiment? (Please don't start by telling me that such an experiment would be impossible to perform. I may be a theist, but I'm honestly not quite that stupid!
Since this is not a debate forum, I'm just looking for answers. I may or may not come back with further thoughts of my own.
Commoner
Headache
I started wondering about a hypothetical, although impossible, situation that, in my opinion, could -- if it were feasible -- be considered proof of God's existence. Let's say we had a group of 500,000 people, all of whom were terminally ill and none of whom were in any way religious. They could be either agnostic or atheist, I suppose, but they definitely would not be the kind of people who would ever pray, asking that God heal them, nor would they solicit the prayers of others on their behalf. Let's assume that they were all close to death and resigned to the fact that the end was near. Now, let's say that these people were split into two groups of 250,000 each. The prayers of all Christians, Muslims and Jews throughout the world were offered up to God, pleading with Him to heal the dying individuals within the first of these two groups. No one, however would pray for anyone in the second group. Within a relatively short period of time (let's say two weeks), every single one of the 250,000 individuals for whom prayers were offered were "miraculously" healed. Without a single exception, all of them were as healthy as they'd been at any time in their lives. On the other hand, during this same period of time, every last one of the 250,000 who had not had anyone pray for them (and had not prayed for themselves) died, as had been expected.
Would these results, if they were exactly as I described them, possibly cause you to re-think you lack of belief in God? Would they, in other words, be sufficient to make you to believe in God? If not, to what would you attribute the results of the experiment? (Please don't start by telling me that such an experiment would be impossible to perform. I may be a theist, but I'm honestly not quite that stupid!
Since this is not a debate forum, I'm just looking for answers. I may or may not come back with further thoughts of my own.
Well, this would certainly be a strong case for the effectiveness of prayer. But, no matter how impressive 250.000 people being cured is, 250.000 separate instances would be the real "proof", repeatable experiments, controlled conditions. But yeah - your example would certainly make me re-examine my position.
However, prayer being effective doesn't necessary have to do with the existence of a god. And it's even more confusing when it comes to which god exactly this could be attributed to. Furthermore, this would seem to be a god I would not want to be affiliated with, and certainly not a god I would want to worship. I don't take kindly to people who are so easily bribed and who can be so callous and indifferent towards my fellow human beings. More the devil than a god, it would seem to me.
Thomas Van Gogh
New Member
First, to answer your question of would I believe in a (abrahamic) god if such a "miracle" were to occur.
If such a miracle was to occur, I would acknowledge the existence of a higher being. But let me be clear that this does not mean that I would FOLLOW him!
My personal atheism has always been built on the foundation that if someone finally proved the existence of God and it was irrefutable, I would acknowledge that but never would I follow such a god that allows evil to exist. In fact, I would rebel against such a master.
Too bad this is all hypothetical~