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Atheists, theists, outside views, and empiricism

Brian2

Veteran Member
I don't see how that makes it any different for a believer. If we are all deciding on meaning for ourselves, then we're all in the same boat, it seems.

I have differentiated the purpose of life from our own self given meaning for our own lives. A Christian theist should know the purpose and the meaning comes from that ultimate purpose. By meaning here I am referring to the tasks the person sets to do/achieve in their lives. With any luck a believer will be guided in a general direction by God and even in specific directions.

Do you think that atheists don't value themselves?

I'm sure atheists value themselves and others. In a philosophical sense however there is a limit to how valuable a life can be. We are stardust seems to be an attempt to give value where no ultimate value exists.
The young and idealistic might feel this lack of value in their life and end up in depression and the 'it does not matter' attitude that can lead to suicide.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
I have differentiated the purpose of life from our own self given meaning for our own lives. A Christian theist should know the purpose and the meaning comes from that ultimate purpose. By meaning here I am referring to the tasks the person sets to do/achieve in their lives. With any luck a believer will be guided in a general direction by God and even in specific directions.

But there's no way for you to know what this ultimate purpose is.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
You know, the atheists I've met have been great comforters. If they see me upset, they tend to focus on whatever emotion I'm feeling, without saying things like, "Cheer up, I'm sure God will still love you." or some other inspirational quote that I don't quite understand.

That being said, the reason why I'm theist is that my sense of fantasy is very great, to the point I want it beside me - that active imagination when it comes to the what-ifs.

Some atheists would say that introduces errors into my judgement. But I think you can have everything down to fine details, and still get it wrong, due to not looking outside the box you do the experiment in - to use an analogy. It's kind of like when two great debaters go off on each other - both sides may have facts and arguments that reduce your average person to dust. Yet the average, untrained debater might still get it right due to being outside the linear path of thought going from point A (debater 1) to point B (debater 2) as the two argue the fine details of just a few points.

Sorry, I somehow missed this when it was first written.

Some atheists are clowns, let's just put that out there. Not me, of course. I'm lovely. But it's not like being an atheist automatically makes you rational. But still, I get what you mean. False platitudes are not as comforting as having someone just listen, and be in the moment with you.

I just wanted to push back a little on the fantasy part of your post, and perhaps add a thought around the fine details part, from my own personal experience. I'm old now, and that's what we old folk do.

Fantasy - I've always enjoyed fantasy, still do, and feel like it's added a lot to my life. I think you're aware I write, and it's almost invariably got at least a touch of fantasy (sometimes much more than a touch). My fiction reading is pretty varied, but again...mostly fantasy to some level, whether it's absurd comedic stuff that holds a mirror up to the world (Terry Pratchett) or gritty realism where the fantastical is used to separate the darkness of the tale from the real world (Joe Abercrombie). As a kid I played Fighting Fantasy books (err... Fighting Fantasy - Wikipedia), and read a LOT of mythology, particularly Greek.

I love how it can be pure escapism, but it can also be insightful and thought-provoking. It's just a level of freedom above and beyond restricting oneself to the mundane and 'real'.
I've got a bunch of different fantasy gaming stuff on my shelf still, including some pretty niche stuff, from Birthright (which is the best D&D system, dammit...ahem...), Palladium, and Frenzy, which I truly doubt anyone knows. As well as all the normal D&D stuff (2nd edition...stuff I should sell, actually...worth a few $ at this point).

Whatever. My point is, you can embrace fantasy, see value in it and be an atheist. Heck, I kept a cringey little book of quotes that spoke to me when I was younger. Mostly song lyrics, some philosophy...and more than one religious quote or tract. Wisdom is where you find it.

And to your last point...you sound like you're talking about reductionism. Some...and of those some, many are atheists...seem to think grinding down a problem to it's smallest components is the best way to find the answer. But it's really just a way to find AN answer. Because it lets you ignore a whole bunch of other stuff. It's not where the really fun questions live anyway. Love. Justice. Fairness. How to get the Boston Celtics their next championship. All these life-changing questions go far beyond linear thinking.
And since I have the option of co-opting a far better writer than I to explain this, I hereby call to the witness stand one Terry Pratchett.

A conversation between Susan and DEATH, extracted from The Hogfather

“All right," said Susan. "I'm not stupid. You're saying humans need... fantasies to make life bearable."

REALLY? AS IF IT WAS SOME KIND OF PINK PILL? NO. HUMANS NEED FANTASY TO BE HUMAN. TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE FALLING ANGEL MEETS THE RISING APE.

"Tooth fairies? Hogfathers? Little—"

YES. AS PRACTICE. YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE LITTLE LIES.

"So we can believe the big ones?"

YES. JUSTICE. MERCY. DUTY. THAT SORT OF THING.

"They're not the same at all!"

YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY. AND YET—Death waved a hand. AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED.

"Yes, but people have got to believe that, or what's the point—"

MY POINT EXACTLY.”


Your honour, I rest my case.
*jurors stand and applaud, because...well...fantasy is real*
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
Reading the Bible can make it easy to see what God wants us to aim for in this life and where it is leading to in the next.

That doesn't work unless you have some way of verifying that the Bible is accurate when it makes such claims.

Pray tell, how have you accomplished this verification?
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
So you haven't verified it. All you have is wishful thinking.

What I have is faith that what the Bible tells us is from God. This comes with a variety of reasons for that belief but no verifications. That is why it is called a faith and not a science.
It is not just wishful thinking. If it was just wishful thinking then my wishes would be different in many ways to what is told us in the Bible. On the other hand it is more optimistic than the belief that there is nothing after this life. That isn't even wishful thinking (unless your wish is to disappear into oblivion) and is also not verified.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
What I have is faith that what the Bible tells us is from God. This comes with a variety of reasons for that belief but no verifications. That is why it is called a faith and not a science.
It is not just wishful thinking. If it was just wishful thinking then my wishes would be different in many ways to what is told us in the Bible. On the other hand it is more optimistic than the belief that there is nothing after this life. That isn't even wishful thinking (unless your wish is to disappear into oblivion) and is also not verified.

Faith is just wishful thinking when someone else is telling you what to wish for.
 
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