Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[Trailblazer]

The criteria was the ability to build airplanes and develop vaccines and address climate change. I don't see how that was confusing at all.

And the "what" was displaying intelligence, as specified in post 2203.

So you do not think that the ability to build airplanes and develop vaccines and address climate change is a measure of intelligence?

I have never insulted you. I have pointed out your use of logical fallacies. That is not an insult, even if you choose to interpret as such.

You have done more than that, and other people have seen it, even though you do not see what they said posted on the forum, since they said it to me privately.

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. as humans have to do that for themselves.

Sure, humans have to do things for themselves. Depending on a fictitious idea like God and his narcissist messengers does not help. But all species perish when their time is up. That will happen to humans also. An eternal life is hog-wash.

 

[Aupmanyav]

As I said to @Tiberius you leave me alone and you won't hear from me.

Like @Tiberius said, we do not mind hearing from you. Actually we look forward to it. It is fun and pleasure to hear you talking about your messenger (actually of any messenger from Allah, not only the one in Bahaism) and reading his sayings (as translated by his great grandson, Shoghi, with all its taketh, giveth, holdeth, throweth) as repeatedly quoted by you. RF won't be RF for me without you and your Bahai colleagues.

 

[CG Didymus]

That is absolutely FALSE. As I said to @Tiberius you leave me alone and you won't hear from me.
Who is posting to who? You posted to me, I did not post to you. I only respond because I consider that the polite thing to do.

Do you really think that I like getting all these posts? Think again. A good day for me is when I wake up and turn on the computer and there are only a few posts I have to look at and answer, but more often that not it is 15 or 25 that come in overnight. This is worse than hell.

This is your thread. You put the question out there. Remember all of these posts? Over a hundred pages ago? But all in a little over a month?

How can Atheists want God to do anything since atheists do not believe in God in the first place?
It is kind of up to the believers in God to give a good enough answer for why God exists, that the atheists may investigate further, but if the atheists do not have the slightest belief in God, why would they spend time looking for it?

Yes, we known for a long time what kind of evidence Atheists want. And we've known for a long time that they reject what believers give as evidence.

I do not see it that way at all. It is not up to the believers in God to provide evidence for atheists. We can tell atheists 'what we believe' the evidence is but if they do not accept that as evidence our job is done. As Jesus said, shake the dust off your feet.

If atheists do not have the slightest interest in believing in God they won't search for God and in that case they will never find God. It requires willingness and effort. It is really that simple.

But you do provide your "evidence", it gets rejected, but you don't "shake" the dust off and move on. You keep making the same claims about your beliefs.

If it is as you say, that its only to tell atheists about our belief, then leave them alone if they do not want to listen, why do you keep challenging the exact people you say one should leave alone

Yes, why don't you leave them alone if you've already told them your beliefs and they don't want to listen?

Because they do not leave me alone so I finally had it and so I decided to challenge them to come up with better evidence than I have given them. .... knowing they cannot do it.

Ah, they won't leave you alone, so you decided to "challenge" them. So you know they don't believe you and you know that they can't come up with anything better than?

Then the question for me still is. why use 9 years on a forum to discuss with atheists who you know will disagree with you and ask you more questions?

9 years of this? This hell is of your own making. This is your thread. You didn't have to start it, and you can end it.

 

[Trailblazer]

Sure, humans have to do things for themselves.

That is true. No God or Messengers are going to do anything for us.

But all species perish when their time is up. That will happen to humans also. An eternal life is hog-wash.

I do not know what will happen to other species, only humans. You will find out that what makes you you is not dead after your body dies. My earnest desire is that I will see all my atheist friends on the other side, not so I can say "I told you so" but rather because I enjoy their company more than the company of most believers. Heaven would be hell without my atheist friends.

 

[Trailblazer]

This is your thread. You put the question out there. Remember all of these posts? Over a hundred pages ago? But all in a little over a month?

That does not mean I like getting all these posts. I probably would not have posted it had I known what would happen but I am not God so I cannot see into the future.

Yes, we known for a long time what kind of evidence Atheists want. And we've known for a long time that they reject what believers give as evidence.

But you do provide your "evidence", it gets rejected, but you don't "shake" the dust off and move on. You keep making the same claims about your beliefs.

No, people keep asking me the same questions and I just keep responding to posts. I am making no claims.

Yes, why don't you leave them alone if you've already told them your beliefs and they don't want to listen?

The question is not why don't I leave them alone, the question is why don't they leave me alone. Why do they keep asking me for evidence when I have already told them over and over and over that I don't have any evidence other that what I have already provided.

If they don't want to listen to my answer then why are they posting to me?

Ah, they won't leave you alone, so you decided to "challenge" them. So you know they don't believe you and you know that they can't come up with anything better than?

I gave then their opportunity to come up with something better than Messengers and nobody even tried, they just threw it back in my lap.

9 years of this? This hell is of your own making. This is your thread. You didn't have to start it, and you can end it.

Yes, the hell is of my own making but some people choose to suffer for the Cause of God.
Do you really think this thread would end if I stopped answering posts here? I highly doubt it.

 

[Tiberius]

No.

So proof doesn't indicate anything, according to you.

 

[Tiberius]

Why do you care what views other people have?

Because I don't want to live in a society where there are more ignorant people than there need to be.

Can you explain how you verified it?

The same way you did. I used my own judgement to check and verify its validity, just as you explained HERE.

And HERE.

And HERE.

And HERE.

And HERE.

What's the matter? Is this method of verification suddenly not good enough for you?

 

[Tiberius]

So you do not think that the ability to build airplanes and develop vaccines and address climate change is a measure of intelligence?

It is one measure of it, yes, but it is far from the only one.

I could say that the ability to fly unaided by machines is the measure of physical prowess, but that doesn't mean that birds have a greater physical prowess than Humans, does it?

You have done more than that, and other people have seen it, even though you do not see what they said posted on the forum, since they said it to me privately.

Ah, of course.

Funny how I've never had anyone tell me, "Hey, I think you were a bit rude there, Tibs."

 

[Trailblazer]

So proof doesn't indicate anything, according to you.

Proof does not indicate, it proves.

 

[Trailblazer]

What's the matter? Is this method of verification suddenly not good enough for you?

So you verified it by reading what other people posted?

 

[Trailblazer]

It is one measure of it, yes, but it is far from the only one.

I could say that the ability to fly unaided by machines is the measure of physical prowess, but that doesn't mean that birds have a greater physical prowess than Humans, does it?

I was not referring to physical prowess, I was referring to intelligence. Can any animal other than a human design and build an airplane?

 

[Subduction Zone]

I was not referring to physical prowess, I was referring to intelligence. Can any animal other than a human design and build an airplane?

That would be a "No'. So what?

 

[Tiberius]

Proof does not indicate, it proves.

Meaning of indicate in English

indicate
verb
UK /ˈɪn.dɪ.keɪt/ US /ˈɪn.də.keɪt/
indicate verb (SHOW)

B2 [ T ]
to show, point, or make clear in another way:


Sounds like an indication to me...

 

[Tiberius]

So you verified it by reading what other people posted?

Why should I do that? I said I did it the same method that you described in the posts I linked to, and you didn't get other people to check your work.

Let's see what you DID say, shall we?

"...use *your own judgment* to check and verify the validity of the evidence." 2135

"I have just verified for myself that Baha'u'llah's claims are true." 1476

"I have verified that my religious beliefs are true, the only way they can be verified." 2318

"The evidence is check-able and it can be verified by you, unless you do not think you are *capable* of assessing evidence and coming to a determination." 2134

"Independent investigation of truth is a process that a person does by themself, they do not rely upon what others think about the evidence." 3206​

I see nothing there which requires me to read what other people have posted. In fact, your method seems to require that I use nothing but my own views, not those of other people.

No, I just used my own judgement and I have VERIFIED that there is nothing special about your faith, and that Baha'i is built on the same logical fallacies and unsupported claims as any other religion.

 

[Tiberius]

I was not referring to physical prowess, I was referring to intelligence. Can any animal other than a human design and build an airplane?

Irrelevant. You can pick any quality that an animal has and then use that as a yardstick by which to measure, and then show that this animal is the best. You just happened to pick something that we are good at using our brains for, and then claimed that it was the best measure of intelligence.

I don't see any other species waging war over ideological beliefs except Humans. Does that make us more or less intelligent?

 

[Trailblazer]

That would be a "No'. So what?

So that means that humans have mental capacities that other animals do not have.
I believe that is because humans have a rational soul whereas other animals only have an animal spirit.

“The human spirit which distinguishes man from the animal is the rational soul, and these two names—the human spirit and the rational soul—designate one thing. This spirit, which in the terminology of the philosophers is the rational soul, embraces all beings, and as far as human ability permits discovers the realities of things and becomes cognizant of their peculiarities and effects, and of the qualities and properties of beings” Some Answered Questions, p. 208

55: SOUL, SPIRIT AND MIND

 

[Trailblazer]

Meaning of indicate in English

indicate
verb
UK /ˈɪn.dɪ.keɪt/ US /ˈɪn.də.keɪt/
indicate verb (SHOW)

B2 [ T ]
to show, point, or make clear in another way:

Sounds like an indication to me...

Proof indicates but it does more than just indicate, it establishes.

Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid: https://www.google.com/search

Proof: evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement: https://www.google.com/search

e.g., The evidence for Baha'u'llah indicates (shows, points, and makes clear) that He was a Messenger of God, but the evidence does not establish as a fact that He was a Messenger of God. Nobody can establish supernatural claims as a fact since they can never be proven.

 

[Trailblazer]

I see nothing there which requires me to read what other people have posted. In fact, your method seems to require that I use nothing but my own views, not those of other people.

That is correct.

No, I just used my own judgement and I have VERIFIED that there is nothing special about your faith, and that Baha'i is built on the same logical fallacies and unsupported claims as any other religion.

You should not JUDGE a religion based upon what other people say about it. Reading what people post on a forum and then forming an opinion from that is not verification. The proper way to VERIFY what a religion teaches is to actually research the religion yourself, as @Truthseeker9 explained in this post. #247

 

[Subduction Zone]

So that means that humans have mental capacities that other animals do not have.
I believe that is because humans have a rational soul whereas other animals only have an animal spirit.

“The human spirit which distinguishes man from the animal is the rational soul, and these two names—the human spirit and the rational soul—designate one thing. This spirit, which in the terminology of the philosophers is the rational soul, embraces all beings, and as far as human ability permits discovers the realities of things and becomes cognizant of their peculiarities and effects, and of the qualities and properties of beings” Some Answered Questions, p. 208

55: SOUL, SPIRIT AND MIND

No, it does not indicate a soul at all. All that it indicates is that we may be the most intelligent.

There is a reason that the ability to test, and possibly refute an idea is so important. It is how we separate science from pseudoscience.