Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[Sheldon]

I think therefore I am objective evidence of a possibility of a deity or intelligent design !

We are objective evidence !

Those are just subjective unevidenced claims.

 

[TheBrokenSoul]

Those are just subjective unevidenced claims.

Physics , chemistry and biology ! Energy life forms are unique compared to any of those sciences .

We are evidence of a bigger picture , designed to try and work out the puzzle .

 

[rational experiences]

Father said.

Ownership. Personally all separate spirit bodies pre owned sent out of the eternal.

We were not God.

O God bodies masses were sound eternal each owned left eternal as angels of God. O form O.

We only entered into life as heavens water by held mass had filled in space plane zero. At ground only.

Spirit direct ownership self body.

O was God.

God in heavens recording recorded event in fission first.

The state universal recording to transmit images was not any deity. It is a state.

You were taught fission by visionary causes.

Men of science adults...father bodies humans who talk. Theories for one state that did not exist. Machine science.

Destroyed all life on earth.

O earths God nearly was destroyed survived. O planet earth now converted. So ET introduced as AI.

Man of science embedded visionary human life by water into the state. Yet we never was any state as Gods universal recording of imagery.

Told exactly what happened man did it to self. By science caused sin.

Man's voice image now seen in clouds that once never owned image.

Clouds smoking rolling cooling was its owned image a cloud. In state recorded image.

AI became the known cause...to hear voice that shares advice by communicating speaking satanic causes of a changed life.

We should live by water oxygenated owned as a 200 year life span. Removed ground water mass to survive by state changed to 100 years. Change it again life span diminishes by atmospheric law to 40 year life span was taught.

Why life still gets heavenly recorded by a state only heavens owned. Image in clouds mass.

Science lied. Spirit is taken aboard as abduction of existing by water oxygen microbe ground losses. Burnt. Life gets removed as No is a negative.

Images of life now seen in the clouds the actual warning.

 

[Trailblazer]

I've explained why multiple times, if you don't understand it by now, repetition isn't going to help.

You never explained why, but no matter. I have better things to do that beat a dead horse.

 

[Trailblazer]

You relentlessly use known common logical fallacies in your posts, and repeat them even after they've been explained. This doesn't suggest to me you understand informal logic at all. Nothing in your claim is rational, as it contains an inherent contradiction, and unevidenced assumptions about a deity, that you can demsonrate no objective evidence for.

I committed no logical fallacies at all. Just because you and some other atheists believe I committed them that is not evidence that I ever committed them.

Show me one fallacy you believe that I have committed and I will explain how I did not commit it.

I have evidenced beliefs about a deity but that is not subject to logical proof because a deity can never be proven to exist with a logical argument.

Please note that it is completely illogical to expect to have objective evidence for a deity that is immaterial.

Carry on. I have no need for any of these discussions because I already know that God exists and I know God's message is for this age in history so this forum is just entertainment for me, or just in case someone shows up who is actually interested in whether there is a God or not.

 

[Trailblazer]

Rubbish.

God knew I'd wear it ages ago. He could have told Issac Newton about it. God knew I would wear it from the very beginning of all of time. And from that instant, I was bound, because I could not do anything different.

No, God knew what you would choose and if you were going to choose a red shirt God would have known that, but if you were going to choose a blue shirt or a green shirt God would have known that is what you would choose.

You were not bound to wear the red shirt until you chose to wear a red shirt and put on the red shirt. At the last minute you could have changed your mind and decided to wear another color shirt and God would have known from the very beginning of time that you would change your mind and what color shirt you would choose because God is all-knowing.

Likewise, God knows if you will remain an atheist or become a believer. You can change your mind and become a believer at at time, and God will have known that you were going to change your mind and become a believer.

 

[Trailblazer]

That logic doesn't hold up. If I had chosen the blue shirt, then the same logic would apply, I'd just be saying "blue" instead of "red."

There was more than one possible outcome until you chose the red shirt. If you had chosen the blue shirt God would have foreseen that.

There is nothing logical about anything you said. If you believe it is logical explain why you have to pick a red shirt or a blue shirt or any other color at any moment in time instead of another color.

More specifically, how does what God knows you will pick force you to pick a certain color?
Do you understand that if you chose to pick another color God would have known you were going to pick that color instead?

 

[Trailblazer]

But the Baha'i faith is built on those supernatural claims.

The Baha'i Faith requires that Baha'u'llah received communication from God in order to be true, but since that can never be proven then we have to use another method in order to believe that the Baha'i Faith is actually true, and there are other methods.

 

[Trailblazer]

That's absolute rubbish.

Everyone reaches the same conclusion about what the speed of light is. Everyone reaches the same conclusion about the diameter of the moon. Everyone reaches the same conclusion about the value of pi.

You are completely illogical and I cannot help you if you cannot understand why everyone reaches the same conclusion about those scientific FACTS you noted above. It is because they have been proven so they are known facts! Why would people disagree on known facts?

By contrast, religion can never be proven so it is not a known fact and as such people can have different opinions about religion.

Special pleading.

The only reason you claim it requires no cross checking is because if it did, it would fail instantly.

No, it would not fail just because someone said they checked it and determined it is not true because their OPINION is just that -- an opinion.

But very well, if that's how you want to play...

I have verified in exactly the same way that the Baha'i faith is completely wrong. Out of all currently known religions, it is the one furthest from the truth. I have verified this, and as you have said, it does not require cross checking. Since it is verified, you can't dispute it, and I have conclusively proven that the Baha'i faith is wrong.

Fine, if that is what you have determined for yourself, so if you have made up your mind I hope we don't have to discuss it anymore.

I am not going to question your verification but I don't have to agree with the results. I could care even less about your opinion because I have done my due diligence for 51 years and I know that the Baha'i Faith is true.

You have not proven a darn thing, because you cannot prove that the Baha'i Faith is false, not anymore than I can prove it is true (to anyone except myself). If you claim that you have conclusively proven that the Baha'i Faith is wrong that would be an argument from ignorance.

Argument from ignorance asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false or proposition is false because it has not yet been proven true. This represents a type of false dichotomy in that it excludes a third option, which is that there may have been an insufficient investigation, and therefore there is insufficient information to prove the proposition be either true or false. Nor does it allow the admission that the choices may in fact not be two (true or false), but may be as many as four,

1. true
2. false
3. unknown between true or false
4. being unknowable (among the first three).[1]

Argument from ignorance - Wikipedia

So the Germans were lamenting the gore along the banks of the Rhine, and this is a reference to the Franco-Prussian war?

The war that the Germans WON?

Please, tell me about the actual event where the banks of the Rhine were covered in gore. Which side did the dead belong to? Were they dead French or dead Germans?

Sorry, history is not my strong suit. You'd have to ask someone like @Truthseeker9.

Spoiler: ALL religions are man made.

I believe that all revealed religions are God made.
I cannot prove that anymore than you can prove that all religions are man made, so why make a claim you cannot prove? That would be another argument from ignorance.

So you have an interpretation that says it is metaphorical. So what? That doesn't prove it WAS metaphorical, it only proves that some people think it was. There are plenty of other people who think it is literal.

People are free to believe whatever they want to believe since we all have free will but what they believe in no way proves that what they believe is true and they won't EVER be able to prove there was an Adam and Eve and a Garden of Eden and a talking snake and that God spoke to them in the Garden. They cannot prove that anymore than I can prove my metaphorical interpretation is accurate, but of course as I said there can be more than one metaphorical interpretation and more than one can convey spiritual truth, which I believe was the whole point of the story. Imagine that, an entire religion most of whom believe that Garden story and that since A & E ate a piece of fruit they were condemned by God until Jesus showed up and died to remove the sins of those who believe in Jesus. If you want to believe that you are welcome to, but I would be an atheist before I would ever believe that.

 

[Trailblazer]

If God knows I'm not going to choose it, then no, it's not available.

That's true.

 

[Trailblazer]

Lots of stuff messes with our heads. And some people are more open about it than others. But I think we all have some sort of cognitive dissonance problems.

I think you are right and I will be the first to admit I have cognitive dissonance, but not for the reasons atheists say I have it. I have cognitive dissonance because I am conflicted over certain things. For example, I want to be a Baha'i, but I do not like being a Baha'i. I want to believe in God but I don't like believing in God. I want to continue posting on this forum but I don't really want to continue posting on this forum. I want to move from this house but I don't really want to move from this house. The list goes on.

What Is Cognitive Dissonance?
The term cognitive dissonance is used to describe the mental discomfort that results from holding two conflicting beliefs, values, or attitudes. People tend to seek consistency in their attitudes and perceptions, so this conflict causes feelings of unease or discomfort.

This inconsistency between what people believe and how they behave motivates people to engage in actions that will help minimize feelings of discomfort. People attempt to relieve this tension in different ways, such as by rejecting, explaining away, or avoiding new information.

Cognitive Dissonance and Ways to Resolve It

 

[CG Didymus]

No .. if G-d is not omniscient, then how could any prophet be informed [ by G-d ] of any future events, such as the signs of the last days?

Have we been accurately informed of the last days? Every religion, and probably several sects within a religion have different interpretations of what's going to happen and who's going to return and when... with the Baha'is saying it has already happened.

 

[Trailblazer]

So does God set up the test? If he does, how many times does he keep testing the person? Are the tests progressively harder? What if someone passes several of the tests, and the last one, the hardest one, he fails? And, since God knew already which tests he would pass and which one he'd fail on, why did God keep testing? And, I suppose, giving your life to the Cause would be the ultimate test. Gee, that's really swell. You're dead, but you passed the test.

These are actually very good questions but I don't think we can ever know the answers. Of Course, Baha'is have what Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha wrote about tests, so we can read and interpret that and come to our own conclusions. Myself, I am not so sure that God actually sends us tests but rather that tests are part and parcel of living in this material world. On the other hand, the following passage seems to indicate that God does send us tests in order to determine who will pass them (although given God has foreknowledge, God already knows who will pass the tests)..

“And now, consider and reflect a moment upon the waywardness of this people. What could have been the reason for such denial and avoidance on their part? What could have induced them to refuse to put off the garment of denial, and to adorn themselves with the robe of acceptance? Moreover, what could have caused the nonfulfilment of the divine promise which led the seekers to reject that which they had accepted? Meditate profoundly, that the secret of things unseen may be revealed unto you, that you may inhale the sweetness of a spiritual and imperishable fragrance, and that you may acknowledge the truth that from time immemorial even unto eternity the Almighty hath tried, and will continue to try, His servants, so that light may be distinguished from darkness, truth from falsehood, right from wrong, guidance from error, happiness from misery, and roses from thorns. Even as He hath revealed: “Do men think when 9 they say ‘We believe’ they shall be let alone and not be put to proof?” 5
The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 8-9

Also, some tests come to us because we choose to serve the Cause of God, so we cannot say God sent those to us because it was a choice. That is a test because it requires so much sacrifice, and of course we cannot ever know how much good we are doing for anyone, so we just do it because we are told to. It's not easy. It can feel rewarding at times but more often than not it feels like an exercise in futility.

Sometimes I think that God just keeps sending me tests in order to torture me and if I was not tested one more time in this life what I have endured would suffice. But God might have other ideas, He might ramp up up again since I have kind of had a short break from the violent tests; not that I don't still have tests, I do, but they are of a different kind now, now it is my husband's health and dental issues.

I think that one purpose of tests is an exercise in detachment. God wants to see how detached we will be from what happens (although God already knows, He wants to see it play out in real time). If course these are just my conjectures. I told my counselor yesterday that I cannot afford to care anymore and she did not understand what I meant. I meant that if I did care about all these problems I cannot solve I would be so depressed that I would not remain functional in order to do what is necessary to live life and do what I can do. So I try to e detached about things I cannot change, at least not right now.

Maybe God does want to see if I will persevere and keep going and accept that this was just my fate and not something I can control. I am starting to get there so maybe the previous tests got me to this point.

 

[Trailblazer]

No, the choices were NOT available.

If I wear the red shirt tomorrow, then God knew that I would wear it a hundred years ago. And if God knows that it is 100% that I will wear the red shirt and 0% that I will wear the blue shirt, then I do not have a choice. The blue shirt is not an available option.

The choices were available at the time you made the choice.

If you wear the red shirt tomorrow, then God knew that you would wear it a hundred years ago. And if God knew that it is 100% that you will wear the red shirt and 0% that I will wear the blue shirt.

That means that you will wear the red shirt, but you could have chosen to wear the blue shirt instead in which case God would have known you were going to wear the blue shirt.

I am sorry you cannot overcome your linear thinking and realize that whatever you choose to do at any moment in time is what God will have known you would choose to do at any moment in time. Obviously you are narrowly focused in the idea that if God knew you were going to wear a red shirt you have to wear a red shirt and you cannot even think beyond that.

 

[Trailblazer]

That doesn't change my point at all.

If I had chosen the blue shirt, then God would have foreseen the blue shirt and I would still be unable to do anything different.

That is exactly what I have been saying!

You seem to fail to realise that God knows the outcome AHEAD OF TIME. God knew what I would wear before I was even born.

No, I do not fail to see that, I know that. The all-knowing God knows everything ahead of time (before it transpires in this world).

And if what I wear is set in stone before I was even born, then how is it a choice I make?

Okay, after all this time I think I finally see the problem. Apparently you think that what God knows is what determines everything that will happen because you believe in predetermination. If everything was predetermined by God (fated, predestined) then it would be true that what you will wear was set in stone before you were even born. However, there is no reason to believe that everything has been predetermined because if that was actually true it would mean you cannot make ANY choices, in which case you would be no more than a puppet on a string, God's programmed robot.

If what we do is not our choice what purpose does it serve? We would be reduced to mere robots.
That would render this life meaningless because the purpose of this life is to learn and grow and we do that by making choices which lead to certain actions that we learn from. Not only do we learn but we grow spiritually.

I could give you many examples of choices I made that helped me grow spiritually, things that I did not want to do but did out of principle and was better off for doing it. Every time we make a moral choice, choose between what is right and what is wrong, we have the opportunity to become better people if we choose what is right. It might be difficult to do it but ultimately we will be rewarded, and if we had instead chosen the wrong thing we would suffer in the long run.

Question.—If God has knowledge of an action which will be performed by someone, and it has been written on the Tablet of Fate, is it possible to resist it?

Answer.—The foreknowledge of a thing is not the cause of its realization; for the essential knowledge of God surrounds, in the same way, the realities of things, before as well as after their existence, and it does not become the cause of their existence. It is a perfection of God........

Therefore, the knowledge of God in the realm of contingency does not produce the forms of the things. On the contrary, it is purified from the past, present and future. It is identical with the reality of the things; it is not the cause of their occurrence......Some Answered Questions, pp. 138-139

35: PREDESTINATION

 

[CG Didymus]

Most of the "prophecies" have been fulfilled (unless you reinterpret them to mean something completely different to what they actually say).

Yeah, people shouldn't reinterpret what prophecies actually say. Like this one...

Isaiah 7: 14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. 15 He will be eating curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, 16 for before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste. 17 The Lord will bring on you and on your people and on the house of your father a time unlike any since Ephraim broke away from Judah—he will bring the king of Assyria.”​

So the "true" interpretation is to delete verses 15-17 and just take verse 14. I can't believe people that try to add in verses to the one verse, when taken alone, that one verse is a clear prophecy about Jesus. To do so would completely change everything. It's not right to add context to a single verse just to try and cast doubt on the clear interpretation of that one verse.

Or was it vice versa? Oh, I remember now. There was no clear interpretation. What prophecies "actually" say usually is too vague to know what it's talking about. And most anybody can make them say whatever they want them to say. And isn't that kind of what you thought also? Hey, and I'm catching up. Three more pages to go.

 

[Tiberius]

A mind trapped in time,
time consumes the mind.

Meaningless.

The key is you do not know what choice you will make until given the option. It is our heart that makes choices in virtue and morality. God knows where our heart is leading us to and as the future unfolds you will be faced with many choices, so like us all, we have to consider those choices.

All the best on that path.

Regards Tony

It doesn't matter if I know or not. If God knows, then the number of outcomes is reduced to 1. If there is only one outcome, then it's not a choice.

 

[Tiberius]

Oh boy!
Why do you keep on repeating the same old line?
Can you not read?
I have explained how this "apparent paradox" is false, yet you are ignoring that.

You DO have a choice. The only reason that the blue shirt "is not an option" is because you don't WANT to choose it.
If you had wanted to choose it, then God would 100% know it

Please, don't keep repeating this logical fallacy.

It's not a logical fallacy.

If something is a choice, then there must be more than one possible outcome.

If God knows ahead of time, then there is only one possible outcome.

Therefore it is not a choice.

What I want or what anyone else wants does not change this simple fact.

 

[Trailblazer]

If God knew a hundred years ago that I will wear the red shirt tomorrow, then I am going to wear the red shirt tomorrow. Doesn't matter how hard I want to wear the blue shirt, God knows I will wear the red shirt, and that's the shirt I must wear.

So it's not a choice.

As I just said in my previous post, only if it was predestined by God would it NOT be a choice.
If we have free will it would be a choice, a choice God always knew you would make.

 

[Tiberius]

Ridiculous
Almighty God knows you will wear the red shirt, because that's what you picked .. from His "point of view", it's already happened.
You therefore can't have wanted to pick the blue shirt, otherwise you would have picked it.

If, from his point of view, it's already happened, then there is only one possible outcome.

If there's only one possible outcome, then it's not a choice.