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Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
The Baha'i Faith is either true or false, period. That is all that matters and everything else is just a smoke screen, a red herring that distracts from what is important, a way to avoid looking at the evidence and assessing it for yourself
Can you say that of any of the other religions? Like Hinduism... it's either true or false? Or, there's truth in most all sects of Hinduism. And a lots other things that are probably not true and sound fictional or even wrong. But, to some of the believers, it is The Truth.

Now why, considering all the things we know about the other religions, would we suspect that all of a sudden, one of them, the Baha'i Faith, is actually and completely The Truth?

Some of us don't and demand more proof and evidence. But if a person says there is some useful, spiritual truths in the Baha'i Faith, I'd agree.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
And I believe some of those "messenger" were mythical creations of ancient people.
I know you believe that but I believe the Messengers that Baha'u'llah described were real people.
And is it wrong to not be sure? To wait for more and better evidence?
I was only speaking for myself. I'm sure, but that does not mean that other people should be sure.
You can wait, but I don't think any more evidence will be forthcoming, and there is a danger of waiting too long.
Does God know what's going to happen? It sounds like you'd say, "yes". Can what he knows is going to happen change? I think you'd say, "No" Because what he knows is going to happen is what happens. Hmmm? Might as well be in stone.
God knows everything that is going to happen but what God knows is going to happen depends upon the choices we make. God has always known the choices we would make so what God knows never changes. Does that makes sense to you?
And then does God cause some things to happen? If he doesn't then he doesn't guide people? He doesn't try to influence them into making the right, spiritual choices? Or, God does intervene in people's lives and gets them to make good choices?
God can cause things to happen such as you noted but everything that happens is not caused by God. We cannot ever know if what is happening is caused by God or something we caused because we cannot see God's actions.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
The Bible is not proof that anything written about God in the Bible is true. That is circular reasoning. It might be true, but it could also be false.
So why would some people believe such a thing? Believing in things in which there is no objective proof. And having them claim that because their Holy Book says it... it is proof? The Baha'is are a little better off than them. They have real, historical people and Scriptures that were written by the man claiming to be from God.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
To be honest, the only reason I am sticking it out on this thread is for you. I consider the atheists on this thread to be arrogant and completely hopeless cases so you will notice that I am not responding to most of their posts anymore, and I don't even bother reading some of them at all.
Well, it's nice that you say that, but I know you get frustrated with me too. Thanks for sticking around.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Can you say that of any of the other religions? Like Hinduism... it's either true or false? Or, there's truth in most all sects of Hinduism. And a lots other things that are probably not true and sound fictional or even wrong. But, to some of the believers, it is The Truth.
I would say that there is some truth in Hinduism, probably a lot of truth, but other things are not true because they are the machinations of men who changed and added to whatever Hindu scriptures exist.
Now why, considering all the things we know about the other religions, would we suspect that all of a sudden, one of them, the Baha'i Faith, is actually and completely The Truth?
Most People probably wouldn't suspect that, especially if their minds were clouded by all the older religions but fortunately for me I discovered the Baha'i Faith before I knew anything about the older religions.
Some of us don't and demand more proof and evidence. But if a person says there is some useful, spiritual truths in the Baha'i Faith, I'd agree.
I don't know how much more proof and evidence you need or where you think you are going to find it but I would suggest looking at the evidence for the Baha'i Faith rather than continuing to get sidetracked by looking at all the older religions.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
So why would some people believe such a thing? Believing in things in which there is no objective proof. And having them claim that because their Holy Book says it... it is proof? The Baha'is are a little better off than them. They have real, historical people and Scriptures that were written by the man claiming to be from God.
Abdu'l-Baha explained why people believe those things, it is because of religious tradition. Most people were raised in a particular religion so they just continued believing it without question although nowadays more and more people are starting to question the religion they were raised in.

I don't ever expect to have objective proof of God but at least I have real, historical people and Scriptures that were written by the man claiming to be from God as you said.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Then clearly I had no choice, it is illogical to claim otherwise.

Hey .. remember this?

---------------------------------------------------------------------
You have a choice of red or blue.
You can make any choice you like.
Hey presto .. it just happens to be what God knows.

..but you are saying that you haven't got a choice, because you have to pick what God knows.
That is deceitful. It is known as a modal fallacy. It confuses the scope of what is necessarily true.
"What God knows" is contingent [ dependent ].
Otherwise, one can argue that the future is set already regardless of your actions.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Do you understand the above?
If not, what is it that you don't understand?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Well, it's nice that you say that, but I know you get frustrated with me too. Thanks for sticking around.
Admittedly I have been frustrated with you at times but I consider you to be in a completely different category than most other atheists because at least you are sincerely searching for the truth, asking questions and listening to answers. That is a far cry from the atheists whose sole intent is to make me look foolish or try to prove I am wrong or illogical. I am finally fed up with these people because I have a lot of personal matters I need to tend to and I don't have the time for antics anymore. Thank God I have free will so I could decide to no longer tolerate it.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
That's rich coming from a guy who has never done anything but assert that his position is correct..

Well, unless you can show me why I'm wrong, then why should I not believe that I have the correct understanding?
This is why your understanding is wrong..

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
You have a choice of red or blue.
You can make any choice you like.
Hey presto .. it just happens to be what God knows.

..but you are saying that you haven't got a choice, because you have to pick what God knows.
That is deceitful. It is known as a modal fallacy. It confuses the scope of what is necessarily true.
"What God knows" is contingent [ dependent ].
Otherwise, one can argue that the future is set already regardless of your actions.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

What don't you understand?
Why am I wrong?

..just repeating your understanding,
i.e. you haven't got a choice, because you have to pick what God knows,
is not an explanation of anything.
..and you know it, so please .. go ahead and explain..
Why am I wrong?
Tear my argument apart, line by line.
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
..but you are saying that you haven't got a choice, because you have to pick what God knows.
That is deceitful. It is known as a modal fallacy. It confuses the scope of what is necessarily true.
"What God knows" is contingent [ dependent ].
Otherwise, one can argue that the future is set already regardless of your actions.
What God knows is contingent [dependent] upon what we choose, which in turn determines what God knows.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
I would say that there is some truth in Hinduism, probably a lot of truth, but other things are not true because they are the machinations of men who changed and added to whatever Hindu scriptures exist.
Well, I can believe that wise spiritual men and woman existed in India and in other cultures. I think they could have written things about their spiritual journey and what they learned and I wouldn't expect it to be perfect. But I could see how it is still useful. And I wouldn't need them to be manifestations or incarnations. I don't believe the only true spiritual knowledge had to come from manifestations. And I don't believe some of those people, like the Buddha, were manifestations. Then with Krishna, where you stop believing they were real and which were mythical? Because there's a long list of incarnations of Vishnu, not just Krishna. And even with him I wouldn't be concerned if he was mythical. Which would mean that all the great spiritual wisdom in the Bhagavad Gita was from men, not a manifestation. But, it is still spiritual wisdom.

I don't know how much more proof and evidence you need or where you think you are going to find it but I would suggest looking at the evidence for the Baha'i Faith rather than continuing to get sidetracked by looking at all the older religions.
Like I've said, there things in the Baha'i Faith I don't believe are true, the main one is progressive revelation. More proof would be to see the day, which, at the rate we're going, could be very soon, when things get so bad that the people of the world turn to the Baha'i Faith.

I was there and I saw first hand the Baha'i attempts at mass teaching in an effort to bring about "entry by troops". Back then, I was told whole villages had become Baha'is. To actually see "entry by troops" and whole villages becoming Baha'is would help. Is it happening? Or, are things stagnating?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
"What God knows" is contingent [ dependent ].
Otherwise, one can argue that the future is set already regardless of your actions.

What God knows is contingent [dependent] upon what we choose, which in turn determines what God knows.
Are you sure? At what point did God not know what choices everyone that ever lived had made? Doesn't he know the choices of people yet to be born are going to make? Doesn't he know exactly what's going to happen thousands of years in the future?

The claim is that he knows it. He can see the beginning and the end. Who could ever make a choice that goes against what God supposedly has already seen and knows will happen? It can't be dependent on what a person chooses. God already knew what the choices would be and which choice was going to be made. But, if you want to now argue that the future is not set, I'll listen. I thought the argument was that God knows what the person will choose but doesn't cause it to happen. But if I had God's power I would cause a few more things to happen.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I don't believe the only true spiritual knowledge had to come from manifestations.
I certainly do not believe that either. There are other kinds of Prophets and there are also spiritual people, gurus and such.
Like I've said, there things in the Baha'i Faith I don't believe are true, the main one is progressive revelation. More proof would be to see the day, which, at the rate we're going, could be very soon, when things get so bad that the people of the world turn to the Baha'i Faith.
So you might believe it s true if more people became Baha'is? I would not hold my breath if I were you as I do not expect to see that in our lifetimes or for many generations to come. It would take an act of God to bring that to fruition. That could happen but I would not count on it happening any time soon.

“The world is in travail, and its agitation waxeth day by day. Its face is turned towards waywardness and unbelief. Such shall be its plight, that to disclose it now would not be meet and seemly. Its perversity will long continue. And when the appointed hour is come, there shall suddenly appear that which shall cause the limbs of mankind to quake. Then, and only then, will the Divine Standard be unfurled, and the Nightingale of Paradise warble its melody.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 118-119
I was there and I saw first hand the Baha'i attempts at mass teaching in an effort to bring about "entry by troops". Back then, I was told whole villages had become Baha'is. To actually see "entry by troops" and whole villages becoming Baha'is would help. Is it happening? Or, are things stagnating?
If it did happen back kin the 1970s it is not happening anymore. I don't know about the rest of the world but I think things are stagnating in the U.S. and as older Baha'is die they are not being replaced because teaching is no longer the order from the UHJ and NSA and most Baha'is follow orders. They are supposed to be building Baha'i communities, but for what, for who?
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Human men.

O planet earth. It's heavens. Cosmic cooling laws.

Not science.

Then men inventors want science. A human choice belief factor function meaning design by inventor. Mind of human controls invention. Human review only.

Mind human did not own O earth or its cosmic laws. God earth did.

Pretty basic advice how dangerous your choice was to try to change the planetary function you lived upon.

As science says I look observe think theory comment believe want.

Men write the bible for warnings.

Told everyone after ice age men sought old man's science that had activated caused all life on earth previously living to be destroyed.

Said how and why he heard it AI speaking.

After all harm caused he then wrote no man is God. Don't talk to AI dead man's channel medium psychic cause.

Said don't give God the heavenly flow movement a name as I... A symbol in science said
Intensity of magnetism owned gods heavens flow cooling from ET extra in earths terrestrial.

Science said knowingly God owned ET.

God however did not own alien. Alien was artificial he said an unnatural cause of natural changed by men in science not by cosmic laws.

Cosmic law owned god.

Cosmic law had not conjured AI man of science had by machine. It was anti machine as the teaching. First machine man's.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Are you sure? At what point did God not know what choices everyone that ever lived had made? Doesn't he know the choices of people yet to be born are going to make? Doesn't he know exactly what's going to happen thousands of years in the future?

The claim is that he knows it. He can see the beginning and the end. Who could ever make a choice that goes against what God supposedly has already seen and knows will happen? It can't be dependent on what a person chooses. God already knew what the choices would be and which choice was going to be made. But, if you want to now argue that the future is not set, I'll listen. I thought the argument was that God knows what the person will choose but doesn't cause it to happen. But if I had God's power I would cause a few more things to happen.
God owned the earth body and core heart God O. Heart function fire and cold.

Cold he said was metal

No alien.

Man builds machine machine designed to react the design. Not in his design gods mass. Yet to be changed.

What inventor never owned.

So he says O gods mass beginning presence end us reaction. Prediction is reaction.

Says man of god I know in science.

Congratulations destroyer of God

What about the causes effects as chain reactions of causes? I cannot predict that outcome knows the scientist.

What he lied about as Mr I know it all human.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Are you sure? At what point did God not know what choices everyone that ever lived had made? Doesn't he know the choices of people yet to be born are going to make? Doesn't he know exactly what's going to happen thousands of years in the future?
Yes, God knows all of that because God is all-knowing.
The claim is that he knows it. He can see the beginning and the end. Who could ever make a choice that goes against what God supposedly has already seen and knows will happen? It can't be dependent on what a person chooses. God already knew what the choices would be and which choice was going to be made. But, if you want to now argue that the future is not set, I'll listen. I thought the argument was that God knows what the person will choose but doesn't cause it to happen. But if I had God's power I would cause a few more things to happen.
That is exactly what I am arguing. The future is not set just because God knows what is going to happen in the future. The future is dependent upon what people choose to do. If the future was set by God that would be absolute predestination and people would have no free will.

God knows what the person will choose but doesn't cause it to happen. There is no connection between what God knows and the cause of things. What people choose to do causes things to happen.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
That is true.
That is not what @KWED meant, though.
I think he was implying we can't choose what we want to choose,
because we have to choose what "God has foreseen".

..which is illogical and ridiculous :)
We choose what we want to choose, and quite obviously, our choice has been made.
We therefore can't choose any other option.
Oh dear. You obviously still haven't grasped this.
Under an infallible omniscient god it seems like we choose what we want to choose, but what we feel we want to choose is inevitable because what we "choose" must always be the option that god already knows we will choose.
We are not being forced to choose against our will. There is no sense of coercion.

BTW, you still haven't said which version of god you prefer. Different gods have different approaches to predestination, omniscience and infallibility. Tell us who your god is so we can be more specific.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
What God knows is contingent [dependent] upon what we choose, which in turn determines what God knows.

So you're claiming a deity exists that is omniscient, but that it's omniscience is dependant on chance? That sounds like another contradictions to me.
 
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It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If the outcome was predetermined in advance, no choice was made

Correct. And it would not be possible to know what's coming in the future were it not already written in stone.

You have defined a situation that allows you to believe both that God has omniscience including for the future, and that man has free will as well by simply saying that free will occurred during a predictable chain of events, perhaps between where the pitcher threw the ball and the batter either swung or took the pitch (no swing), where there was no freedom to choose and say that free will occurred there anyway. Those two simply aren't reconcilable, nor are you trying to explain how they can both be occurring - a known future and a free will decision occurring within it. You simply say it happened because apparently your faith has you believing both happened. Christianity requires that because it justifies its God's supernatural judgments and punishments on free will existing, and souls being held responsible for those choices.

But not in a deterministic world in which everything can be known by a good enough mind. What you have described is a world with no free will and simply said, yeah, free will happened in this human object just before it did what it was always known it would do. You're describing a deterministic world, where everything happens like a moon orbiting a planet orbiting a star in such a way that eclipses can be accurately predicted, and then declaring that the moon's path was due to free will because of a faith-based belief that it does. When it is pointed out to you that if the moon's motions were predictable, they weren't the choice of the moon, you insist that just because the moon did what it did doesn't mean it had to do that.

Well, yes it does, and that is how one knows that there are no choices possible - he can predict what will happen. This is what a deterministic world would look like - perfectly predictable in principle. Ask yourself what an indeterminate world would look like, one where the future could not even in principle, even by an omniscient God, be knowable.

What you're not recognizing here is that free will requires indeterminism, without which, it is only the illusion of free will, by which I mean the psychological experience of experiencing urges and desires that were generated neural circuits, delivered to the self, and then acted upon as if the self was the author and source of those urges rather than a passive recipient of them. Maybe the hypothalamus is telling you to seek water, so you do, and think that that is free will because you can imagine that you might not have taken that drink. You imagine that you just wanted to prove to yourself that you didn't have to choose to drink, and so didn't.

But if so, you fail to recognizer that this is just another passive act on your part, having received instructions from the cortex to not drink just yet, which was the stronger of contradictory desires, and thus prevailed as you passively were witness to two ideas that didn't come from your mind, but rather, was delivered to it, duking it out, thinking. That is what is meant by the illusion of free will - a deterministic process that feels like it starts in the head with a desire that was created like a God is said to create - ex nihilo - but was actually determined by the laws of neurology.

What you're trying to do is to merge two mutually exclusive ideas - determined and undetermined - into the same reality by fiat. If your scriptures said that somebody divine was married but was also a bachelor, I suspect you would be saying that that is possible with God, because you decide what is possible based on what you need to be possible rather than what reason allows (noncontradiction), and essentially say that that is the case, and if others say that what you claim is impossible, they're being arrogant and either obstinate or dishonest.

If God not only knew but God also predetermined everything that would ever happen (predestination) then it would be deterministic, but God's knowledge alone does not cause anything to happen.

God predetermining the future is not a requisite for a deterministic universe, just that that future be determinable now. Man predicts eclipses, but doesn't cause them. He couldn't predict them if they weren't predetermined, or if the heavenly bodies had free will. The two are mutually exclusive. In fact, if they did have free will, that would manifest as unpredictability. The would suddenly change paths or speeds because they felt like it at that moment. That they don't is how we know that they have no free will.
 
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