Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[Trailblazer]

So a deity doesn't know which choice I will ultimately make before I make it? Only now you are contradicting earlier claims.

I think what @muhammad_isa is saying is that the deity does not determine the choice you will make before you make it, NOT that the deity does not know the choice you will make before you make it. The deity knows what choice you will make but the deity does not determine the choice you will make. You determine what choice you will make by making the choice.

 

[Trailblazer]

Not if a deity knows which one we will ultimately make beforehand. Not sure why this still needs explaining?

Before the choice was made there were other choices that could have been made.
Not sure why this still needs explaining.

 

[muhammad_isa]

If God knows today what I will do tomorrow, then I am not able to do anything other than what he has seen without making God wrong.

Total nonsense !
You are guilty of a modal fallacy.
You can't help yourself, can you.

You can't fool anybody without God's permission.

 

[Trailblazer]

And such logic also applies to any other holy text, correct?

It applies to all the holy texts except the Writings of the Bab and Baha'u'llah and the Qur'an. The reason it does not apply to the Baha'i Writings is because they were Messengers of God and they wrote the texts in their own pens. The reason it does not apply to the Qur'an is because it was revealed to scribes who knew Muhammad and they either wrote down or memorized what He said and then it was written down.

By contrast, the other holy texts were written by men who never even knew the Messengers of God.

 

[muhammad_isa]

You don't seem to understand the burden of proof. You made the claim, you have to show everyone else why it's right!

You can't show me why I'm wrong..
You must think that I'm daft

 

[Trailblazer]

It was not a trick question at all.

How could God tell you that I would wear the red shirt on one day, but the next day I chose to wear the blue shirt?

You will wear the red shirt but NOT because God knew you would wear the red shirt. You will wear it because you chose to wear it.
If you had chosen instead to wear the blue shirt God would have known that you would wear the blue shirt.

 

[rational experiences]

All humans die.

No sex no babies no life human.

Human advice for egotists human theists.

A baby first not theory the baby adult self does. No stories no indoctrination. Life would be lived naturally.

A human says I only own a future human life if I remain living.

Which first does not own any other explanation whatsoever.

Therefore teach your theist self to think just for being a human and not about anything else. Then you would be telling a human truth.

No machines no egotists either.

 

[Trailblazer]

Totally irrelevant.

If God knows today what I will do tomorrow, then I am not able to do anything other than what he has seen without making God wrong.

Totally irrelevant.

You will do what God knows you will do only because what God knows you will do = what you will choose to do.
Had you chosen to do something different then God would have seen you doing something different.
God knows everything you will ever choose to do but what God knows you will do is not what causes you to do it.

 

[rational experiences]

Totally irrelevant.

You will do what God knows you will do only because what God knows you will do = what you will choose to do.
Had you chosen to do something different then God would have seen you doing something different.
God knows everything you will ever choose to do but what God knows you will do is not what causes you to do it.

If the human who believes they speak on behalf of god first...then dies...theism gone instantly. Basic advice.

Egotism only.

Reason to hear men's voice speaking back as man's theism designer thoughts owned and controlled machine as machine function. Is the only builder who put it there.

 

[Tiberius]

I think what @muhammad_isa is saying is that the deity does not determine the choice you will make before you make it, NOT that the deity does not know the choice you will make before you make it. The deity knows what choice you will make but the deity does not determine the choice you will make. You determine what choice you will make by making the choice.

I don't recall anyone saying that the deity IS determining the choice.

It's just that if the deity knows and the deity can't be wrong, then whoever is determining the choice, it isn't you.

 

[Tiberius]

Total nonsense !
You are guilty of a modal fallacy.
You can't help yourself, can you.

You can't fool anybody without God's permission.

Well then, why don't you answer my question from post 3093: If God comes to you and says, "Hey, Muhammad, tomorrow, Tibs is going to wear the red shirt," is there anyway that I could choose to wear the blue shirt?

Also, you still need to pick any argument from your list in post 2342 and I will explain why it is invalid.

You complain about me getting it wrong, but you can't seem to answer these simple questions. Because you know you can't.

 

[Tiberius]

It applies to all the holy texts except the Writings of the Bab and Baha'u'llah and the Qur'an. The reason it does not apply to the Baha'i Writings is because they were Messengers of God and they wrote the texts in their own pens. The reason it does not apply to the Qur'an is because it was revealed to scribes who knew Muhammad and they either wrote down or memorized what He said and then it was written down.

By contrast, the other holy texts were written by men who never even knew the Messengers of God.

Of course, always an excuse to let you believe your own religion is true while eliminating the competition.

 

[Tiberius]

You can't show me why I'm wrong..
You must think that I'm daft

You can't even answer my question from post 3093: If God comes to you and says, "Hey, Muhammad, tomorrow, Tibs is going to wear the red shirt," is there anyway that I could choose to wear the blue shirt?

 

[Tiberius]

You will wear the red shirt but NOT because God knew you would wear the red shirt. You will wear it because you chose to wear it.
If you had chosen instead to wear the blue shirt God would have known that you would wear the blue shirt.

It doesn't matter!

If God knows I will do something, I can't possibly do anything different, can I?

How many times do I need to explain this?

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't recall anyone saying that the deity IS determining the choice.

It's just that if the deity knows and the deity can't be wrong, then whoever is determining the choice, it isn't you.

That makes absolutely no sense.

The deity knows and it can't be wrong, The deity knows and it can't be wrong,The deity knows and it can't be wrong,The deity knows and it can't be wrong,The deity knows and it can't be wrong,The deity knows and it can't be wrong,The deity knows and it can't be wrong,The deity knows and it can't be wrong,

Are you able to think of anything else that is involved?

The deity knows what we will choose because the deity is all-knowing and the deity cannot be wrong because the deity is infallible, but the deity does not determine what we will choose by knowing what we will choose.

Of course it is humans who determine the choices that they make, everybody knows that, and that is why humans are held accountable for the choices they make in courts of law.

 

[Trailblazer]

It doesn't matter!

If God knows I will do something, I can't possibly do anything different, can I?

How many times do I need to explain this?

You can do anything you choose to do and whatever you choose to do, God always knew what that would be.

The only reason you will do what God knows you will do is because God knows what you will do.
This is not rocket science, it is logic 101.

How many times do I need to explain this?

 

[Tiberius]

That makes absolutely no sense.

The deity knows and it can't be wrong, The deity knows and it can't be wrong,The deity knows and it can't be wrong,The deity knows and it can't be wrong,The deity knows and it can't be wrong,The deity knows and it can't be wrong,The deity knows and it can't be wrong,The deity knows and it can't be wrong,

Are you able to think of anything else that is involved?

The deity knows what we will choose because the deity is all-knowing and the deity cannot be wrong because the deity is infallible, but the deity does not determine what we will choose by knowing what we will choose.

Of course it is humans who determine the choices that they make, everybody knows that, and that is why humans are held accountable for the choices they make in courts of law.

I never said the deity determines it, did I?

My point is that if the deity knows ahead of time, and it can't be wrong, then the one who determines it IS NOT ME. And thus, no choice on my part.

I'm not saying anything about what does choose for me wear one shirt or the other. I'm just talking about who ISN'T making the choice - ME.

How can I possibly make this any clearer?

 

[Tiberius]

You can do anything you choose to do and whatever you choose to do, God always knew what that would be.

The only reason you will do what God knows you will do is because God knows what you will do.
This is not rocket science, it is logic 101.

How many times do I need to explain this?

You can explain it all you want, it's not going to make it make sense.

It's about whether the choice is changable or not.

If the choice is changeable, then God can't know it. Because once he knows it, it can't be changed without making God wrong. If God says I will wear the red shirt, and then I choose to wear the blue shirt, it means God was wrong. And if God knows I will wear the blue shirt anyway, then I never had the choice to wear the red shirt, not without making God wrong.

 

[Trailblazer]

I never said the deity determines it, did I?

My point is that if the deity knows ahead of time, and it can't be wrong, then the one who determines it IS NOT ME. And thus, no choice on my part.

I'm not saying anything about what does choose for me wear one shirt or the other. I'm just talking about who ISN'T making the choice - ME.

How can I possibly make this any clearer?

How is the fact that God knows ahead of time preclude you from being the one who makes the choice?
Why isn't it YOU who is making the choice?
Who is making the choice if not YOU?

Who put on the shirt? You get up in the morning and look in your closet and decide which shirt you will wear.
You choose a red shirt and that is the color God knows you will choose because God knows everything and cannot be wrong

How can I possibly make this any clearer?

 

[Watchmen]

You will wear the red shirt but NOT because God knew you would wear the red shirt. You will wear it because you chose to wear it.
If you had chosen instead to wear the blue shirt God would have known that you would wear the blue shirt.

And that is why I have a problem with God. He knows I’ll choose the red shirt, but doesn’t stop me even though I don’t look good in red.