Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[Trailblazer]

Can't see any evidence of fulfilled prophecies there. Just the usual religious platitudes.

The book you referenced claims that they are prophecies relating to specific events.
If you disagree, why did you cite it as evidence?

I do not know what book you are referring to.

The Bible prophecies that show that Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ are delineated in the following book:
William Sears, Thief in the Night
That book explains exactly how the Bible prophecies were fulfilled.

Baha'u'llah predicted many events that later came to pass. Some of these predictions and how they came to pass are listed and delineated in this book: The Challenge of Baha'u'llah

 

[Sheldon]

He was using god as a metaphor.

I know.

He famously said that "God did not play dice", referring to the phenomenon.

Is that why you capitalised it?

 

[Sheldon]

The fact that I can't change the future, doesn't prevent me from taking responsibility for my actions.

 

[Sheldon]

It is not possible to get sense out of a donkey

Do you think that kind of puerile ad hominem is really a comment on others?

 

[Sheldon]

You don't take into account Einstein's theory of relativity.

Yes we do, we just don't accept your errant nonsense that it implies it evidences your superstitious beliefs.

 

[Sheldon]

The facts about the Baha'i Faith can be found in various books,

As can the "facts" about Harry Potter and wizardry, this doesn't make them true.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Is that why you capitalised it?

..from Stephen Hawkins website..

"Thus it seems Einstein was doubly wrong when he said, God does not play dice. Not only does God definitely play dice, but He sometimes confuses us by throwing them where they can't be seen."

Why has Hawkins capitalised it?
He didn't believe in G-d either.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Yes we do, we just don't accept your errant nonsense..

..so you believe in relativity, but deny its implications that "now" is only an illusion?
You wouldn't be the first, nor the last.

 

[Sheldon]

..from Stephen Hawkins website..

From that very link..

"scientific determinism, remained the official dogma throughout the 19th century. However, in the 20th century, there have been two developments that show that Laplace's vision, of a complete prediction of the future, can not be realised."

"Einstein's view was what would now be called, a hidden variable theory. Hidden variable theories might seem to be the most obvious way to incorporate the Uncertainty Principle into physics. They form the basis of the mental picture of the universe, held by many scientists, and almost all philosophers of science. But these hidden variable theories are wrong. The British physicist, John Bell, who died recently, devised an experimental test that would distinguish hidden variable theories. When the experiment was carried out carefully, the results were inconsistent with hidden variables. Thus it seems that even God is bound by the Uncertainty Principle, and can not know both the position, and the speed, of a particle. So God does play dice with the universe. All the evidence points to him being an inveterate gambler, who throws the dice on every possible occasion."

hmmm

 

[Sheldon]

..so you believe in relativity, but deny its implications that "now" is only an illusion?
You wouldn't be the first, nor the last.

You seem to be asking and answering your questions.

I believe what can be supported by sufficient objective evidence, not your biased straw men. If you think Einstein's work evidences a deity, or evidences any of your unevidenced assumptions about any deity, then I suggest you leave here and go to a scientific website, and let the scientific world know that you have found what Einstein could not in his work.

 

[muhammad_isa]

From that very link..

"scientific determinism, remained the official dogma throughout the 19th century. However, in the 20th century, there have been two developments that show that Laplace's vision, of a complete prediction of the future, can not be realised."
...
hmmm

I know..
I don't follow Hawkins .. or Dawkins
It's all very well theorising about Quantum mechanics, but if it does not predict what relativity predicts, then how can that be viable?

 

[muhammad_isa]

I believe what can be supported by sufficient objective evidence..

..as you keep saying.
You imply that others do not. You are blinded by your own presuppositions.
In this case, that there is no "objective" evidence of a deity.

You are so eager to prove this, that you don't give enough thought to anything else.
Forgive me, if I don't trust the conclusions you draw from scientific observations.

If you think Einstein's work evidences a deity..

..put a sock in it

 

[Sheldon]

I don't follow Hawkins .. or Dawkins

Yes I saw that from the very start, you were just quote mining, and citing their work in isolation to support your unevidenced religious beliefs.

I don't need to be a theoretical physicist to know that science does not evidence any aspect of your beliefs. I can just flick on any news channel for that.

 

[Sheldon]

..as you keep saying.

Well I am misrepresented so often, that I find it prudent to clarify.

You imply that others do not.

Nope, that's not true.

You are blinded by your own presuppositions.

Maybe, but since all you are offering is bare rhetoric I guess we cannot examine the validity of your accusation. Though I suspect that was intentional.

In this case, that there is no "objective" evidence of a deity.

Well no one has demonstrated any have they, but why waste energy denying it instead of immediately demonstrating it if you have it?

You are so eager to prove this, that you don't give enough thought to anything else.

Neither of those claims is true, and again they are presented as a bare accusation, so the biased motive is manifest in your ad hominem.

Forgive me, if I don't trust the conclusions you draw from scientific observations.

Straw man, it was you and not me who drew biased conclusion from science, and started using quote mining and appeal to authority fallacies. I am happy to leave science to science, and if they have evidenced any deity or anything about any deity, then they have kept inexplicably quiet about it.

..put a sock in it

I am disinclined to acquiesce, since this is a public debate forum, though you could try praying for that to happen?

 

[Trailblazer]

As can the "facts" about Harry Potter and wizardry, this doesn't make them true.

Here is the difference:
Harry Potter is a fictional character in a novel. Baha'u'llah was a real person who lived and died.
The facts about Baha'u'llah are historical facts about a real person and they were documented and written about not only by Baha'is, but by historians.
Edward Granville Browne - Wikipedia

 

[Tiberius]

Well, you would claim that.
I've never said that what we choose doesn't affect the future.

You just can't see that it is our choices that MAKE the future what it is, if our futures can also be known.
You see it as contradictory.

You take "time" at face value.
You don't take into account Einstein's theory of relativity.

Are you seriously suggesting that relativity allows God to know the outcome of our choices before we make those choices?

Very well. Relativity is a scientific theory and can be described with mathematics. Please show the maths that describe how the outcome of a choice can be known before the choice is made.

As in, show me the actual equations.

 

[Sheldon]

Here is the difference:
Harry Potter is a fictional character in a novel. Baha'u'llah was a real person who lived and died.
The facts about Baha'u'llah are historical facts about a real person and they were documented and written about not only by Baha'is, but by historians.
Edward Granville Browne - Wikipedia

New York is in the new Spiderman movie, and it is a real place, that doesn't make Spiderman real. I have no idea what your link is meant to demonstrate sorry.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I don't need to be a theoretical physicist to know that science does not evidence any aspect of your beliefs..

You can deny it as much as you like.

Is everything predetermined? Why physicists are reviving a taboo idea | New Scientist
-May 2021-

and..
Here’s why so many physicists are wrong about free will | Aeon Essays

If you seriously believe that fundamental forces leave no space for free will, then it’s impossible for us to genuinely make choices as moral beings. We wouldn’t be accountable in any meaningful way for our reactions to global climate change, child trafficking or viral pandemics. The underlying physics would in reality be governing our behaviour, and responsibility wouldn’t enter into the picture.

That’s a devastating conclusion. We can be grateful it’s not true.

 

[Trailblazer]

New York is in the new Spiderman movie, and it is a real place, that doesn't make Spiderman real.

How is that relevant? Baha'u'llah is a real person in history and you will find His name in all the encyclopedias.
Baháʼu'lláh - Wikipedia

 

[muhammad_isa]

As in, show me the actual equations.

I tell you what .. you show me G-d and I'll show you the equations

Do you understand the PRINCIPLE of relativity?
What is the point in going into the mathematical details of Minkowski space, if you don't know the basics?

Minkowski space - Wikipedia