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Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

First Window

If we look, we see that all things and especially living creatures have numerous different needs and numerous different wants. And those wants and needs are provided for them at the appropriate time, in unexpected ways, from places they do not know and their hands cannot reach; succour comes to them. But the power of these needy beings is insufficient for even the smallest of those endless things they wish for; they cannot meet their needs. Consider yourself: of how many things are you in need that your hands cannot reach, like your external and inner senses and their needs? Compare all other living creatures with yourself. See, just as singly they testify to the Necessary Existence and point to His unity, so in their totality they show to the rea

son a Necessarily Existent One behind the veil of the Unseen, a Single One of Unity, among titles of Most Generous, All-Compassionate, Nurturer, and Disposer.

O ignorant unbeliever and dissolute heedless one! With what can you explain this wise, percipient, compassionate activity? Deaf nature? Blind force? Senseless chance? Can you explain it through impotent, lifeless causes?

Second Window

While in their existence and individuality, things are in a hesitant, bewildered, and shapeless form among innumerable possible ways, they are suddenly given a most well-ordered and wise aspect of individuality. For example, every human being has on his face characteristics which differentiate him from all his fellow humans, and it is equipped with utter wisdom with external and inner senses. This proves that the face is a most brilliant stamp of Divine oneness. And just as each face testifies to the existence of an All-Wise Maker and points to His existence, so too the stamp which all faces display in their totality shows to the mind’s eye that all things are a seal peculiar to their Creator.

O denier! To what workshop can you refer these stamps which can in no way be imitated, and the stamp of Eternal Besoughtedness which is on the totality?

Third Window

The army of all the various species of animals and plants on the face of the earth consists of four hundred thousand different groups. The members of some of those groups, even, are more numerous than all the members of the human race from the time of Adam up to the Last Day.

Their being managed and raised with perfect balance and order through their sustenance, papers, weapons, uniforms, instructions, and demobilizations, which are all different with nothing being forgotten and none of them being confused, is a stamp of the Single One of Unity as brilliant as the sun which can in no way be doubted. Who other than One possessing boundless power, all-encompassing knowledge, and infinite wisdom could have any part in this administration, which is wondrous to the utmost degree. For if one who cannot administer and raise all together these species and nations, which are one within the other, interferes with one of them, he will throw the lot into disorder. Whereas according to the meaning of, So turn your vision again, do you see any flaw? there is no sign of confusion. That means not so much as a finger can interfere.

Seventh Window

The perfect order of the works of art scattered over the face of the universe, and their perfect proportion and balance, and the perfection of their adornment, and the ease in their creation, and their resembling one another, and their exhibiting a single nature demonstrate on a vast scale the necessary existence and perfect power and unity of an All-Wise Maker.

Moreover, just as the creation of innumerable, different, well-ordered complex beings from inanimate and simple elements again testifies, to the number of those composite beings, to the All-Wise Maker’s necessary existence and points to His unity, so in their totality do those beings demonstrate in truly brilliant fashion His unity and the perfection of His power.

Then the utmost distinguishing and differentiating of beings as they are renewed while being assembled and dissolved –that is, during what is called the composition of beings– amid the utmost degree of intermingling and confusion, for example the distinguishing of the shoots and growth of seeds and roots without confusing them in any way although they are all mixed up, and the mixed-up substances entering trees being divided between the leaves, flowers, and fruits, and the nutrients which enter the body in mixed-up form being differentiated and separated out with perfect wisdom and perfect balance for the cells of the body, – again demonstrate the necessary existence and perfect power and unity of the Absolutely Wise One, the Absolutely Knowing One, the Absolutely Powerful One.

Then too the making of the world of minute particles into a boundless, broad arable field and every instant sowing and harvesting it and obtaining the fresh crops of different universes from it, and those inanimate, impotent, ignorant particles being made to perform innumerable orderly duties most consciously, wisely, and capably – this also shows the necessary existence of the All-Powerful One of Glory and Maker of Perfection, and His perfect

Power and the grandeur of His sovereignty and His unity and the perfection of His dominicality.

Thus through these four ways a large window is opened onto knowledge of God; addressing the reason, it displays the All-Wise Maker on a large scale.

Now, you unhappy heedless one! If you do not want to see Him and learn of Him in this way, divest yourself of your reason; become an animal, and thus be saved!

Eighth Window

The testimony of all the prophets (Peace be upon them), who among mankind possessed luminous spirits, relying on their manifest and evident miracles; and the testimony of all the saints, who with their luminous hearts are the spiritual poles of mankind, relying on their illuminations and wonder-working; and testimony of all the purified scholars, who possess luminous minds, relying on their researches and verifications; –the testimony of all these to the necessary existence, unity, and perfect dominicality of the Single One of Unity, the Necessary Existent, the Creator of All Things, forms a truly vast and light-filled window.

O you unfortunate denier! In whom do you place your trust so that you do not heed these? Or by closing your eyes in the daytime do you imagine the world to be plunged into night?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
If God is real. He doesn't have to hide himself.
God does choose to hide Himself because nobody could withstand seeing God in all His glory. Also, not seeing God is a test that differentiates the godly from the froward.

“Were the Eternal Essence to manifest all that is latent within Him, were He to shine in the plentitude of His glory, none would be found to question His power or repudiate His truth. Nay, all created things would be so dazzled and thunderstruck by the evidences of His light as to be reduced to utter nothingness. How, then, can the godly be differentiated under such circumstances from the froward?”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 71-72

But, because of the variations in beliefs, I think there is good reason to suspect that people made up their Gods and their religions. Is the Bible too profound to be a human invention? How about the New Testament? How about the Quran? And even the Baha'i writings. Is God the obvious author? Or could a man have written such a thing? Do we have other spiritual and religious books that are comparable to what Baha'u'llah wrote?
Because of the variations in beliefs, I think there is good reason to suspect that God has revealed different religions in different ages, to suit different human needs in every age.

I do not think there are any spiritual or religious books comparable to the Torah, the Bible, the Qur'an or the Writings of Baha'u'llah.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
And we also see the rotten fruit they produce. Let's use Catholics as an example. St. Francis and Mother Teresa? Good apples. But there's been a few bad apples too. And maybe more bad apples than good ones. So, what can be proven about Catholics? That a large percentage of them are just nominal believers? That some priests did some bad things to altar boys? That Catholics believe things, like Jesus is God, that Baha'is say are false? So, what does that show? That any religions, no matter what they believe, can produce good and bad apples and a bunch of fruitless, nominal believers. Will the Baha'i Faith be better?
As I have said before, I don't think we should judge any religion by its followers because followers of religions don't always live up to the teachings of the religions and some even go astray.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
God does choose to hide Himself because nobody could withstand seeing God in all His glory. Also, not seeing God is a test that differentiates the godly from the froward.
They wouldn't have to see "all" his glory, just a little sign. You know, like he did for the Israelites. Parting the seas, sending fire down on their enemies... those kinds of things. Have an angel stop by once in a while to see how we're doing. Then "not" seeing God is a good way to get people to doubt all the Bible stories about God. And, as we all know, some people go way overboard in their beliefs about God. All based on words in a book.

Because of the variations in beliefs, I think there is good reason to suspect that God has revealed different religions in different ages, to suit different human needs in every age.
Yeah, like the Egyptian, Greek, Aztec, and the many other religious beliefs people have had. Much easier for me to believe people were making it all up. Even with the Bible, read some of those laws and the sacrifices that were required in Deuteronomy. I think the religious leaders could easily have written those things.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
They wouldn't have to see "all" his glory, just a little sign. You know, like he did for the Israelites. Parting the seas, sending fire down on their enemies... those kinds of things. Have an angel stop by once in a while to see how we're doing.
You mean the made up stories about what God did?
Then "not" seeing God is a good way to get people to doubt all the Bible stories about God. And, as we all know, some people go way overboard in their beliefs about God. All based on words in a book.
I agree that some people go way overboard in what they believe God's attributes are.
Yeah, like the Egyptian, Greek, Aztec, and the many other religious beliefs people have had. Much easier for me to believe people were making it all up. Even with the Bible, read some of those laws and the sacrifices that were required in Deuteronomy. I think the religious leaders could easily have written those things.
I think that religious leaders did write those things. How much they were inspired by God is debatable.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
My apologise, my mistake, I misread your post as god does not hide himself for some reason? Now it makes sense.

Though the bible gives more than one account of a deity revealing itself to humans of course. Though paradoxically it also says no one can look upon god and live.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Though the bible gives more than one account of a deity revealing itself to humans of course. Though paradoxically it also says no one can look upon god and live.
I don't know that Bible that well because I was never a Christian, so I don't know where the Bible says that God revealed Himself directly to humans.

In the Ten Commandments movie I recall that God spoke through the burning bush. I do not believe that there was literally a bush, I think the bush was a metaphor for the Holy Spirit which is the medium through which God speaks. In Christianity the Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus like a Dove and in Islam God spoke to Muhammad through the Angel Gabriel and in the Black Pit Prison God spoke to Baha'u'llah through the Maid of Heaven.

I do not know the Bible verses that say that no one can look upon God and live, but Baha'u'llah said essentially the same thing, ans that is why we can never have 'objective evidence' of the entity we call God.

“Were the Eternal Essence to manifest all that is latent within Him, were He to shine in the plentitude of His glory, none would be found to question His power or repudiate His truth. Nay, all created things would be so dazzled and thunderstruck by the evidences of His light as to be reduced to utter nothingness.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 71-72

I actually like the idea of God being in hiding because I would never want to see God, but if I ever did I would have a laundry list of items to take up with Him. :mad: But God does not hide because He is afraid of humans, God hides because it is in our best interest not to reveal ALL of Himself, nor is it necessary for God to reveal all of Himself, since God revealed what humans need to know and can understand..
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
I don't know that Bible that well because I was never a Christian, so I don't know where the Bible says that God revealed Himself directly to humans.

In the Ten Commandments movie I recall that God spoke through the burning bush. I do not believe that there was literally a bush, I think the bush was a metaphor for the Holy Spirit which is the medium through which God speaks. In Christianity the Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus like a Dove and in Islam God spoke to Muhammad through the Angel Gabriel and in the Black Pit Prison God spoke to Baha'u'llah through the Maid of Heaven.

I do not know the Bible verses that say that no one can look upon God and live, but Baha'u'llah said essentially the same thing, ans that is why we can never have 'objective evidence' of the entity we call God.

“Were the Eternal Essence to manifest all that is latent within Him, were He to shine in the plentitude of His glory, none would be found to question His power or repudiate His truth. Nay, all created things would be so dazzled and thunderstruck by the evidences of His light as to be reduced to utter nothingness.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 71-72

I actually like the idea of God being in hiding because I would never want to see God, but if I ever did I would have a laundry list of items to take up with Him. :mad: But God does not hide because He is afraid of humans, God hides because it is in our best interest not to reveal ALL of Himself, nor is it necessary for God to reveal all of Himself, since God revealed what humans need to know and can understand..

Genesis 12:7
The Lord appeared to Abram and said...

Genesis 17:1
Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said...

34 Bible Verses about God Appearing

Exodus 33:20
"..Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.."
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Genesis 12:7
The Lord appeared to Abram and said...

Genesis 17:1
Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said...

34 Bible Verses about God Appearing

Exodus 33:20
"..Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.."
That Bible sure has a lot of contradictions, but of course some of us already knew that.
I believe that Genesis is metaphorical but it is still a contradiction.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
That Bible sure has a lot of contradictions, but of course some of us already knew that.
I believe that Genesis is metaphorical but it is still a contradiction.
Genesis has been largely falsified by objective fact, claiming a deity that has limitless knowledge to create a message, and limitless power to communicate it, just seems like a rather desperate rationalisation to shift the goal posts after the fact.

How bible literalists square away obvious contradictions I don't know, or care to be honest.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
That Bible sure has a lot of contradictions, but of course some of us already knew that.
I believe that Genesis is metaphorical but it is still a contradiction.
Jews don't believe that "G-d appearing" means that He was there "in person".
How could they? They don't believe that G-d is a person,
any more than Muslims do.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Genesis has been largely falsified by objective fact, claiming a deity that has limitless knowledge to create a message, and limitless power to communicate it, just seems like a rather desperate rationalisation to shift the goal posts after the fact.

How bible literalists square away obvious contradictions I don't know, or care to be honest.
I do not know where in Genesis it says that the deity that has limitless knowledge to create a message, and limitless power to communicate it, but I 'believe' that God is all-knowing and all-powerful.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Jews don't believe that "G-d appearing" means that He was there "in person".
How could they? They don't believe that G-d is a person,
any more than Muslims do.

Genesis 17:1
Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am God Almighty; Walk before Me, and be blameless.

Metaphorically walk before me then? :rolleyes:

I guess one can make anything mean anything. Like you claiming the scientific theory of relativity means a deity can exist in a different time dimension. Henceforth I have decided this time frame shall be called Hogwarts, it seems apropos.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
So what do Jews believe the verses mean where they say God appeared?
How was God there?
I suggest you ask them.. I am not familiar with Hebrew.

I guess one can make anything mean anything.
Something like that..
However, there are enough people who can make informed conclusions of a meaning based on knowledge of the whole.
That is the whole point of study .. to develop a coherent theology.
 
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