Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[TagliatelliMonster]

Nonsense.
Most of the OP's I read do not mention fallacies.

I'm not talking about any OP's.
I'm talking about the specific posts that you made which are the subject of the point here.

And even still, the generic point that underlines it, isn't about any OP's. It's about any point that is being made with a logical fallacy embedded in it.

Why is it that atheists realise that theists are guilty of fallacies in almost every statement they make

Only the statements where the logical fallacies are actually used as well as recognized.

, whilst theists actually talk about the subject without calling "fallacy" on every post?

Maybe because the theists you talk about don't really understand what fallacies are? That might also explain why they continue to use them.

It's all nonsense.

Sorry, but using valid and sound logic, and insisting upon it in debate/discussion setting, is not "nonsense". Instead, it's rational.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

"People is dumb" .. I don't know why you bother..
Clearly, atheists are not dumb.
They don't believe in fairy tales like the Bible.

Ow I can guarantee you that plenty of atheists almost certainly believe plenty of dumb things.
I'm almost certain that I'm one of them.

It's pretty much unavoidable imo. We are all humans. In all of us, at some point or another, we will let our bias get in the way. We will also make honest mistakes. That's all fine. There's no shame in being human or mistaken.

However...

The question is not if you will be "guilty" of it. Because at some point and/or another, you will.
The question is how you will handle it. Do you question your beliefs? And how intellectually honest are you in doing this? Do you at some point step back and ask yourself "why do I believe this?".
When someone informs you that you are, or might be, incorrect and lays out reasons/evidence for it, do you give it an honest look?

In short: how quick are you to change your mind when evidence demands that you do?
How prepared are you to acknowledge that your beliefs might be incorrect?


That's the real question. Being aware of how easy it is to be mistaken about something, raises awareness and skepticism. It sharpens your BS-filter.

And always remember, the easiest person to fool is yourself.

 

[samtonga43]

and hopefully it's almost over, or the show will have to go on without me, since I got so bored here that I decided to return to the forums from whence I came and I only come back here to check alerts.

You are fooling only yourself, Tb.

It would be of great benefit to your health if you would consider laying off all forums for a while.
This may have become an addiction.

Do you find that you are neglecting other areas of your life as you immerse yourself in forum stuff?

Do you think about how to respond to certain posts when you are away from your computer?

Do you spend time with others in real life?

Do you read fiction?

 

[Trailblazer]

Why is it that atheists realise that theists are guilty of fallacies in almost every statement they make, whilst theists actually talk about the subject without calling "fallacy" on every post?

The irony is that it is the atheists who accuse believers of fallacies who are guilty of committing the fallacies so they are like the pot calling the kettle black.

Obviously, all they have are a keyboard and the ability to type that believers are committing fallacies. It is funny to watch but sad to see because it is really all about ego and the need to be right. But they are wrong in the most important matter that they will ever have to decide upon because God does exist. All the talk about logic will NEVER change that because it is true in reality, and there is nothing they can do about it. Logical arguments can neither prove or disprove that God exists and if they really knew anything about logic they would know that.

 

[Sheldon]

TagliatelliMonster said: ↑
When somebody in a debate tries to make his points by invoking fallacies, then there isn't anything to debate.

Nonsense.
Most of the OP's I read do not mention fallacies.

I think you have entirely missed the point there.

Why is it that atheists realise that theists are guilty of fallacies in almost every statement they make,

They don't, some theists only use such fallacies infrequently, you, TB and BilliardBalls use them relentlessly, even after you must know you're doing it.

whilst theists actually talk about the subject without calling "fallacy" on every post?

The theists who more often make irrational claims and arguments, clearly don't care that their claims and arguments are irrational.

It's all nonsense.

You think logic is "nonsense", well there you go then.

 

[Sheldon]

"People is dumb" .. I don't know why you bother..
Clearly, atheists are not dumb.
They don't believe in fairy tales like the Bible.

Oh I've met atheists who were dumber than a bucket of hair, not believing in deities doesn't guarantee anything in my experience.

 

[Sheldon]

Obviously, all they have are a keyboard and the ability to type that believers are committing fallacies.

Poisoning of the well fallacy.

"Poisoning the well (or attempting to poison the well) is a type of informal fallacy where adverse information about a target is pre-emptively presented to an audience, with the intention of discrediting or ridiculing something that the target person is about to say."

Seriously, look it and see if you can see it for yourself, and more importantly how the claim looks to those who can see it is irrational. Though it is your choice of course.

 

[Sheldon]

It is funny to watch but sad to see because it is really all about ego and the need to be right.

You think lacking the will to make assertions that are right, is a good thing? That actually might explain a great deal. Seriously what is it you think is wrong about wanting to believe only what is most likely to be right, correct, or true?

But they are wrong in the most important matter that they will ever have to decide upon because God does exist.

Quelle surprise. another sweeping unevidenced claim. Luckily my disbelief in your deity, is no more important to me than your disbelief in Zeus, Thor, Apollo, or the Aztec god of gluttony.

All the talk about logic will NEVER change that because it is true in reality,

The capitals, are very telling, no idea or belief can be ringfenced from ever being changed, unless one is thoroughly closed minded. Logic doesn't change anything, it is simply a method of reasoning that adheres to strict principles of validation, it's efficacy is manifest, unlike the validity of your claims.

Logical arguments can neither prove or disprove that God exists and if they really knew anything about logic they would know that.

Oh dear, you end with a straw man fallacy, that just says it all really.

 

[Trailblazer]

You are fooling only yourself, Tb.

It would be of great benefit to your health if you would consider laying off all forums for a while.
This may have become an addiction.

Do you find that you are neglecting other areas of your life as you immerse yourself in forum stuff?

Do you think about how to respond to certain posts when you are away from your computer?

Do you spend time with others in real life?

Do you read fiction?

You have no way of knowing that I am fooling myself because you know nothing about me or my life.

You are a day late and a dollar short because I have already brought this topic up with my counselor. We have discussed it at length and I even made a list, so I know all the reasons I am on forums and how to manage my time properly. Moreover I am not neglecting anything else that I have to do in real life. I take care of all business as it arises. There is a reason why I have to be home all the time and it is personal but I can do what I need to do from home or I go out when necessary.

Have you heard of this new disease called Covid-19? Some people are smart enough and have enough common sense and self-control to stay home rather than going out, socializing and traveling and spreading the virus all over creation, all in the name if enjoying themselves. I consider this selfish and the pandemic will never end because so many people are selfish. All Imo.

I know that forums are not an addiction because I can walk away at any time, and I did, but then God called me back to the other forum. I just follow the Holy Spirit. I don't care if you believe that and I have no need to prove it. One thing I know is that I would rather be thinking of other people than about myself because it is in accordance with my religious beliefs.

40: O MY SERVANT!
Free thyself from the fetters of this world, and loose thy soul from the prison of self. Seize thy chance, for it will come to thee no more. The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 36

Matthew 16:24-26 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

 

[samtonga43]

You have no way of knowing that I am fooling myself because you know nothing about me or my life.

I know what I read here, and I know that you need a break.
Making a list will do nothing; it is a way of evading the issue, but it is not the answer.

Have you heard of this new disease called Covid-19? Some people are smart enough and have enough common sense and self-control to stay home rather than going out, socializing and traveling and spreading the virus all over creation, all in the name if enjoying themselves.

Be honest with yourself, Tb. Would you socialize with others if Covid-19 weren't around?

I know that forums are not an addiction because I can walk away at any time, and I did, but then God called me back to the other forum.

Try walking away for a month; I believe you will discover some valuable truths.

I just follow the Holy Spirit.

You are driving people away from theism,Tb.
I cannot believe the Holy Spirit wants this. If you are really thinking of others you would not be acting as you do.

 

[Trailblazer]

I know what I read here, and I know that you need a break.
Making a list will do nothing; it is a way of evading the issue, but it is not the answer.

And you know there is a problem that requires an answer better than me and my counselor?

Be honest with yourself, Tb. Would you socialize with others if Covid-19 weren't around?

Why does that matter and how is that any of your business?

You are driving people away from theism,Tb.
I cannot believe the Holy Spirit wants this. If you are really thinking of others you would not be acting as you do.

I am not driving anyone away from theism, I have no such power. I never heard anything more ridiculous.

If I was not thinking of others I would not be acting as I do, posting to people who WANT to post to me.
I am not posting to anyone who did not post to me first. I got 60 posts today and the day is not over. I can only conclude that those people want to talk to me and I never try to figure out why because I cannot ever know why unless they tell me.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I am not driving anyone away from theism..

..of course you're not.

 

[Tiberius]

Why are you putting words in my mouth? I meant exactly what I said and nothing more. I have spent more time supporting my position more than any believer on God’s green earth.

I'm not. If you actually read my post, you'll see the words, "Sounds to me..." Those words are pretty important. Please read them next time.

ALL only in your opinion, as you have NO proof of any of that.

It's very easy to prove that someone is relying on a logical fallacy. I have pointed out the logical fallacies you have used, as have others.

Good question. The official Baha'i sources are valid as evidence for the Baha'i Faith because the Baha’is are the ones who know what the Baha’i Faith teaches and that is not biased, it is simply what the Baha’i Faith teaches.

So what? That proves nothing.

I could just as easily say that the official Christian sources are valid as evidence for the Christian Faith because the Christians are the ones who know what the Christian Faith teaches and that is not biased, it is simply what the Christian Faith teaches. That doesn't make it valid.

Please note that I said IF you want to believe in God. I was not assuming anything.

It is not my job to show YOU that God is the TRUTH, nothing could be more ludicrous.

Then why do you come in here making that claim?

And don't give me that tired old, "I'm not making claims, I'm just saying what I believe."

If that were true, you would have posted it, then gone and not responded further. You're not here to state your beliefs, given how many times you've come back to defend them.

You will know when you have done an adequate investigation in an effort to discover the truth. How does a detective know who was the murderer? Sometimes it takes years to find him, and I know that because the only TV program I ever watch is Forensic Files. People who care about the truth will keep looking until they find the truth and they will do whatever it takes.

"You'll just know"? That's a lousy answer. It relies on gut instinct and assumption. That's not going to find the truth about anything.

The arguments are only flawed in your personal opinion, I have a different opinion.

The arguments are able to be precisely defined as flawed. You do know that logic has a rigorous and well structured language akin to mathematics, yes? It's not a matter of opinion.

The arguments are only flawed in your personal opinion. In my opinion all arguments for atheism are flawed.

You are unable to show any such flaws.

 

[Tiberius]

Believe what you like.
You have not presented a valid argument.
Relativity states that what we consider to be "the present" only applies to our frame of reference.
..and you just mumble on about point's in time. There IS no absolute definition of "point in time".

All you've done is make vague claims. You've never provided anything specific.

But please, tell us how any being can bring knowledge about an event to any point in time prior to that event. Be specific, talk us through what they would do, step by step.

 

[CG Didymus]

..of course you're not.

That's easy to say, but has she said anything to get you to want to investigate the Baha'i Faith? And if you and she got in a debate about Islam and the Baha'i Faith, I wonder how you would civil you'd be with each other? And if you could... why can't you be civil with Atheists? And, "Because they started it", is not a good reason for a Muslim or a Baha'i to treat them badly.

 

[CG Didymus]

The question is not if you will be "guilty" of it. Because at some point and/or another, you will.
The question is how you will handle it. Do you question your beliefs? And how intellectually honest are you in doing this? Do you at some point step back and ask yourself "why do I believe this?".
When someone informs you that you are, or might be, incorrect and lays out reasons/evidence for it, do you give it an honest look?

That's the real question. Being aware of how easy it is to be mistaken about something, raises awareness and skepticism. It sharpens your BS-filter.

And always remember, the easiest person to fool is yourself.

Awesome. "Intellectually honest"... not an easy thing to do... especially when a person has joined a religion that has all sorts of beliefs that can't be proven but must be taken on "faith".

 

[Trailblazer]

So what? That proves nothing.

I never said it did.

I could just as easily say that the official Christian sources are valid as evidence for the Christian Faith because the Christians are the ones who know what the Christian Faith teaches and that is not biased, it is simply what the Christian Faith teaches. That doesn't make it valid.

The Christian sources are valid as evidence for the Christian Faith.

Then why do you come in here making that claim?

I am not making any claims.

"You'll just know"? That's a lousy answer. It relies on gut instinct and assumption. That's not going to find the truth about anything.

No, it relies upon having looked at all the evidence you can find.

You are unable to show any such flaws.

I could if I wanted to, but I don’t want to waste my time looking at other people’s flaws.

 

[samtonga43]

No, it relies upon having looked at all the evidence you can find.

And when you have looked at all the evidence you can find, you'll just know.
What will you 'just know', Tb?

 

[samtonga43]

And you know there is a problem that requires an answer better than me and my counselor?

I never said that.

Why does that matter and how is that any of your business?

You are asking why it matters that you are honest with yourself? Really?

I am not driving anyone away from theism, I have no such power. I never heard anything more ridiculous.

You're right. I exaggerated, and I apologize. Maybe better to say that your posts do not draw readers toward your faith.

If I was not thinking of others I would not be acting as I do, posting to people who WANT to post to me.

Ask yourself why they want to post to you, Tb. Could it be that they are trying to show you your many errors of logic and encourage you to think critically?

I am not posting to anyone who did not post to me first. I got 60 posts today and the day is not over. I can only conclude that those people want to talk to me

Don't measure yourself by the number of posts you receive. What is important is that you know more about why these posters want to talk to you.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..tell us how any being can bring knowledge about an event to any point in time prior to that event. Be specific, talk us through what they would do, step by step.

I don't intend to spend time over it..
You will just dismiss it, anyway.
I know the truth. It is possible for an agent to know something apparently before us. Your objections are mere play on words,
or deceitful manipulations of infinity.

Talk of points in time assume that time is somehow absolute, while it is not.
Your sense of it not being possible to know of an event "before" it has happened
stems from this concept.
It is just that for an observer not in our frame of reference, it is possible that the series of events that we call the future have "already happened".

You just carry on with your nonsense, just as you do with your incompatibilist argument.