Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[Trailblazer]

However it is rationally inconsistent to claim a deity has limitless knowledge and power, then start listing things it can't do, especially things evolved apes have mastered.

@RestlessSoul was not listing the things that the deity cannot do:

@RestlessSoul said: "To ask why an omnipotent God doesn't do this or that, is simply to expose the limited perceptions of the questioner. We each see only a little. Only God sees all."

God can do anything but God does not choose to do everything that God can do, and that is why God does not do what some atheists expect God to do.

“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 209

 

[Trailblazer]

Because if no one else can check it, how do you know your own personal biases haven't lead you to a flawed and incorrect conclusion?

Of course one’s personal biases will enter in and there is nothing wrong with that. God wants OUR personal opinion, not the personal opinion of Joe Schmoe.

In effect whether we recognize the Messenger for who He as is a test that God gives to us and it is a test that we are supposed to pass on our own. When you take a final exam, do other students ‘check’ your answers before you hand in your test?

This is a core part of the scientific method. Having people check your work to make sure you haven't made any mistakes is a very good idea.

As I have told you in the past, religion IS NOT science so the methods of coming to conclusions are very different.

AGAIN, should your classmates ‘check your work’ before you hand it in to the teacher?

And stop with your patronizing, "I'm sorry you can't understand this" attitude. The entire scientific community says you are wrong. What is Peer Review? | Wiley

It is the fallacy of false equivalence to equate religion with science and expect the methods of discovering truth to be the SAME.

The scientific community does not SAY anything about religion or how to identify a true Messenger of God.

You tell me. You are the one who claimed that me holding the position of atheist since I deconverted from Christianity had left me mired.

You can stay mired as long as you want to just as I can stay mired as long as I want to because God gave us al free will to choose our beliefs.

And they all say that their prophet of choice has stuff that your Mr B doesn't have.

They can say whatever they want to because they have free will, and they would be right because other Messengers such as Jesus had things that Baha’u’llah did not have. Conversely, Baha’u’llah had things the other Messengers did not have.

You once again fail to realise that your faith isn't anything special.

I never said it was special, I only ever said that it is the new religion for this new age, the religion God wants everyone to follow. People can choose to drive a Model T or they can drive a new car. The model T will not get them across the country but the new car will.

Oh, please don't tell me you are resorting to Pascal's Wager. that's a really weak argument.

I said “It is not a what if for me, it is a what if for you and other nonbelievers.”

I never said anything about consequences so Pascal's Wager is not even related to what I said.

People of all religions claim that their holy person of choice has done the things to back up their position, but no one else has. Once again, your belief is nothing special.

Their holy person of choice has done the things to back up their position but this is a new age and that is why we needed a new Messenger who revealed new things.

It also has the benefit of fitting all the evidence.

You are free to believe that if you want to. We all have different personal opinions about the evidence.

 

[Trailblazer]

Most of his messengers are rejected; they have no credibility because too many crooked people claim to speak for God when they are just looking for power

That's true, there are many false claimants, but who is to blame for rejecting the True Messengers of God?

Not God.

 

[Sheldon]

@RestlessSoul was not listing the things that the deity cannot do:

@RestlessSoul said: "To ask why an omnipotent God doesn't do this or that, is simply to expose the limited perceptions of the questioner. We each see only a little. Only God sees all."

God can do anything but God does not choose to do everything that God can do, and that is why God does not do what some atheists expect God to do.

“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 209

The context was your assertion that a deity could communicate with humans, but that they (humans) could not understand it. Implying ipso fact that a deity cannot make itself understood by humans, otherwise your claim is obviously a contradiction.

A deity that cannot do something is not omnipotent. Though of course as has been pointed out before, the concept of omnipotence is inherently contradictory anyway.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..is it really God or just people doing the tweaking?

That is for you to decide.
..so far, you seem to have decided that G-d does not give you enough data to decide.

..or maybe, you have an internal struggle inside you that stops you from acting on what you have learned about G-d?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Most of his messengers are rejected; they have no credibility because too many crooked people claim to speak for God when they are just looking for power

I would rather stick to Jesus and Muhammad, peace be with them.
Any other claim to prophecy is based on at least one of those.
"Old is gold"

 

[Kfox]

That's true, there are many false claimants, but who is to blame for rejecting the True Messengers of God?

Not God.

No; God IS to blame because he is the one allowing the false messengers to have the same credibility as the true ones.

 

[Kfox]

I would rather stick to Jesus and Muhammad, peace be with them.
Any other claim to prophecy is based on at least one of those.
"Old is gold"

You mean you would rather stick with Muhammad; Jesus never wrote anything down so you don't know what he actually said.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Jesus never wrote anything down so you don't know what he actually said.

I believe that both were messengers of G-d.
There is more than the Bible to study. There is the apocrytha, for example.

We are able to study all of the historical, associated material.
Christianity and Islam are widespread. It doesn't prove them to be correct, but it indicates to me that Jesus and Muhammad have an affect on the whole globe, and are not just local phenomena.

We can't believe everything that people claim. That is obvious.
It is safer to stay in the mainstream, and not join a cult.

 

[samtonga43]

That is what you think was the point, not what Tiberius said was his point.

You missed Tiberius' point.

I never said God was unable to do certain things,

Really? Here's what you said:
"God does not have the ability to communicate with each of us directly in a way we can understand".

 

[ppp]

You missed Tiberius' point.


Really? Here's what you said:
"God does not have the ability to communicate with each of us directly in a way we can understand".

One would think that their god could simply make us all Messengers. He can communicate with them.

 

[Kfox]

I believe that both were messengers of G-d.
There is more than the Bible to study. There is the apocrytha, for example.

I don't care if it's the Bible or the apocrytha; Jesus never wrote anything down! Those are somebody else's words, not Jesus.

We can't believe everything that people claim. That is obvious.
It is safer to stay in the mainstream, and not join a cult.

The religions you speak of were not always mainstream, they were once considered a cult. If Cults were wrong then, what makes them right now?

 

[muhammad_isa]

The religions you speak of were not always mainstream, they were once considered a cult. If Cults were wrong then, what makes them right now?

Do you really have no idea?
Hint: it has something to do with monotheism.

 

[Trailblazer]

No; God IS to blame because he is the one allowing the false messengers to have the same credibility as the true ones.

Clearly, the false messengers do not have the same credibility as the true ones.

The following criteria are my criteria which is based upon who I believe were true Messengers of God, who met all these criteria. My criteria narrow the playing field and it will eliminate all the false messengers, since they will fail to meet all the criteria.

The minimum criteria would be:

1. He had good character as exemplified by his qualities such as love, mercy, kindness, truth, justice, benevolence, gracious, merciful, righteous, forgiving, patient.

2. He believed he had been given a mission by God and did everything he could to see that it was carried out. He was completely successful before his death, and he accomplished everything that he set out to do.

3. He wrote much about God and God's purpose for humans both individually and collectively, or scriptures were written by others who spoke for him. He firmly believed that the work he was doing was for the Cause of God.

4. He had many followers while he was alive, and there are still millions who follow his teachings and gather in groups based on the religion he founded.

5. His followers have grown more numerous in recent times.

This is a starting point but there are other questions we would want to ask ourselves before we would be able to believe that a man was a true Messenger of God because that is a bold claim so there should be a lot of evidence to support such a claim.

Other criteria he would have to meet is that his religion could not contradict or be in opposition to any of the world religions that are already established and he could not talk down any of those religions and say his religion is the only true religion from God. That would be a dead giveaway that he was trying to promote his religion as being the only true one, which would lead to suspicion right off the bat because none of the true Messengers of God have talked down other Messengers who preceded them. It is the followers of these religions that talk down the other religions, not the Messengers. There are reasons for that but I do not want to get off the subject at hand.

 

[Kfox]

Do you really have no idea?
Hint: it has something to do with monotheism.

My point is; popularity is not an indicator of truth! Just because mainstream religions look down on the less popular and call them cult; does not make them right.

 

[Kfox]

.

 

[Kfox]

Clearly, the false messengers do not have the same credibility as the true ones.

What percentage of theists follow your religion? To me it's clear if your religion is of the right message, most people are rejecting that right message.

The following criteria are my criteria which is based upon who I believe were true Messengers of God, who met all these criteria. My criteria narrow the playing field and it will eliminate all the false messengers, since they will fail to meet all the criteria.

The minimum criteria would be:

1. He had good character as exemplified by his qualities such as love, mercy, kindness, truth, justice, benevolence, gracious, merciful, righteous, forgiving, patient.

2. He believed he had been given a mission by God and did everything he could to see that it was carried out. He was completely successful before his death, and he accomplished everything that he set out to do.

3. He wrote much about God and God's purpose for humans both individually and collectively, or scriptures were written by others who spoke for him. He firmly believed that the work he was doing was for the Cause of God.

4. He had many followers while he was alive, and there are still millions who follow his teachings and gather in groups based on the religion he founded.

5. His followers have grown more numerous in recent times.

This is a starting point but there are other questions we would want to ask ourselves before we would be able to believe that a man was a true Messenger of God because that is a bold claim so there should be a lot of evidence to support such a claim.

Other criteria he would have to meet is that his religion could not contradict or be in opposition to any of the world religions that are already established and he could not talk down any of those religions and say his religion is the only true religion from God. That would be a dead giveaway that he was trying to promote his religion as being the only true one, which would lead to suspicion right off the bat because none of the true Messengers of God have talked down other Messengers who preceded them. It is the followers of these religions that talk down the other religions, not the Messengers. There are reasons for that but I do not want to get off the subject at hand.

Those are your criteria of the true messenger of God. Those criteria mean nothing to anybody but you; everybody else has their own criteria which means nothing to you but everything to them. If God came out of hiding, everybody would have the same criteria and would be of the same religion; because the false ones wouldn't not have had a chance to even get started.

 

[Trailblazer]

What percentage of theists follow your religion? To me it's clear if your religion is of the right message, most people are rejecting that right message.

That's right, and there are many reasons why the message has thus far been rejected by most people.
Below are seven reasons why more people have not recognized Baha’u’llah, yet.

1. Many people have never heard of the Baha’i Faith, so they do not know there is something to look for. It is the responsibility of the Baha’is to get the message out, so if that is not happening, the Baha’is are to blame. However, there are so few Baha’is and they are busy building the New World Order, and there is only so much time, so they can only do so much.

2. But even after people know about the Baha’i Faith, most people are not even willing to look the evidence in order to determine if it is true or not.

3. Even if they are willing to look at the evidence, there is a lot of prejudice before even getting out the door to look at the evidence.

4. 84% of people in the world already have a religion and they are happy with their religion so they have no interest in a “new religion.”

5. The rest of the world’s population is agnostics or atheists or believers who are prejudiced against all religion.

6. Agnostics or atheists and atheists and believers who have no religion either do not believe that God communicates via Messengers or they find fault with the Messenger, Baha’u’llah.

7. Baha’u’llah brought new teachings and laws that are very different from the older religions so many people are suspicious of those teachings and/or don’t like the laws because some laws require them to give things up that they like doing.

Those are your criteria of the true messenger of God. Those criteria mean nothing to anybody but you; everybody else has their own criteria which means nothing to you but everything to them.

I said that they were my criteria and I do not expect anyone to accept them.

If God came out of hiding, everybody would have the same criteria and would be of the same religion; because the false ones wouldn't not have had a chance to even get started.

Apparently you have a dreamy notion that God could show up and everyone would see Him and know it was God.

God can never come out of hiding and show up on earth because God is spirit.
I am ready for you to say that God is omnipotent God can do anything, but omnipotent does not mean can do anything, it means all-powerful.

God cannot do what is not within His nature to do unless He changes His nature in which case He would no longer be God.

The way God 'shows up' on earth is by manifesting Himself in the men I call Messengers who are Manifestations of God.

“He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 49

 

[CG Didymus]

That is for you to decide.
..so far, you seem to have decided that G-d does not give you enough data to decide.

..or maybe, you have an internal struggle inside you that stops you from acting on what you have learned about G-d?

I've spent a lot of time with Baha'is. After that with born-again Christians. Then with Pentecostal Christians. And what did I learn? Everyone believes they have the right way, the real truth, the truth about God. Out of those three, would you believe any of them?

 

[Kfox]

That's right, and there are many reasons why the message has thus far been rejected by most people.
Below are seven reasons why more people have not recognized Baha’u’llah, yet.

1. Many people have never heard of the Baha’i Faith, so they do not know there is something to look for. It is the responsibility of the Baha’is to get the message out, so if that is not happening, the Baha’is are to blame. However, there are so few Baha’is and they are busy building the New World Order, and there is only so much time, so they can only do so much.

2. But even after people know about the Baha’i Faith, most people are not even willing to look the evidence in order to determine if it is true or not.

3. Even if they are willing to look at the evidence, there is a lot of prejudice before even getting out the door to look at the evidence.

4. 84% of people in the world already have a religion and they are happy with their religion so they have no interest in a “new religion.”

5. The rest of the world’s population is agnostics or atheists or believers who are prejudiced against all religion.

6. Agnostics or atheists and atheists and believers who have no religion either do not believe that God communicates via Messengers or they find fault with the Messenger, Baha’u’llah.

7. Baha’u’llah brought new teachings and laws that are very different from the older religions so many people are suspicious of those teachings and/or don’t like the laws because some laws require them to give things up that they like doing.

So you agree; most people reject the right message? So much for the false messages not having credibility huh?

Apparently you have a dreamy notion that God could show up and everyone would see Him and know it was God.

Yes.

God can never come out of hiding and show up on earth because God is spirit.
I am ready for you to say that God is omnipotent God can do anything, but omnipotent does not mean can do anything, it means all-powerful.

God cannot do what is not within His nature to do unless He changes His nature in which case He would no longer be God.

So for God to do the most reasonable, logical thing would go against his nature? How convenient! Sounds to me like he needs a new nature.