Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Of course I agree that agree that there are people who claim to speak for their gods who aren't evidence for their gods?

The answer is not nothing. What my purported "Messengers" have going for them that those other purported prophets don't is to be found on the list of criteria that "I believe" can be used to determine if a man was a true Messenger of God or not. Very few men would meet all these criteria.

The minimum criteria would be:

1. He had good character as exemplified by his qualities such as love, mercy, kindness, truth, justice, benevolence, gracious, merciful, righteous, forgiving, patient.

2. He believed he had been given a mission by God and did everything he could to see that it was carried out. He was completely successful before his death, and he accomplished everything that he set out to do.

3. He wrote much about God and God's purpose for humans both individually and collectively, or scriptures were written by others who spoke for him. He firmly believed that the work he was doing was for the Cause of God.

4. He had many followers while he was alive, and there are still millions who follow his teachings and gather in groups based on the religion he founded.

5. His followers have grown more numerous in recent times.

This is a starting point but there are other questions we would want to ask ourselves before we would be able to believe that a man was a true Messenger of God because that is a bold claim so there should be a lot of evidence to support such a claim.

Other criteria he would have to meet is that his religion could not contradict or be in opposition to any of the world religions that are already established and he could not talk down any of those religions and say his religion is the only true religion from God. That would be a dead giveaway that he was trying to promote his religion as being the only true one, which would lead to suspicion right off the bat because none of the true Messengers of God have talked down other Messengers who preceded them. It is the followers of these religions that talk down the other religions, not the Messengers. There are reasons for that but I do not want to get off the subject at hand.

Why would those criteria be sufficient to establish - without previously establishing the existence of God - that the person truly was a Messenger of God?

... or to put it another way: can you demonstrate that it would be impossible for someone to meet - or at least appear to meet - all of those criteria and be either a clever charlatan or someone who's sincere but mistaken?

 

[Trailblazer]

You do not just get to assume that someone is a "messenger from God".

I could assume that if I had wanted to assume it, but instead I investigated the claim for myself and found it to be true, instead of assuming it was either true or false.

“If a man were to declare, ‘There is a lamp in the next room which gives no light’, one hearer might be satisfied with his report, but a wiser man goes into the room to judge for himself, and behold, when he finds the light shining brilliantly in the lamp, he knows the truth!” Paris Talks, p. 103

 

[QuestioningMind]

Just a creator being. The existence of one. It does not have to depend on anyones definition, but this basic statement you yourself made. If you want to posit a character visible etc etc like Thor or a cow, that is a third or fourth step after defining evidence for the existence of a "creator being".

So what would be a "specific verifiable evidence"? Provide an example!

Okay... if you're refusing to provide any definition of what this creator being that you're proposing exists is, aside from the fact that it's a creator being, then my response is that your definition is too vague for me to provide you with a specific example of the verifiable evidence I would need in order to warrant belief. All I can tell you is that whatever the evidence might be, it would have to be verifiable.

Why do you think it's possible for me to give you a reasonable specific example when you refuse to provide any specifics about the being you claim exists?

But if you insist, I'll give it a try.

If within the next fifteen minutes this creator being were to manifest itself here in the room I'm in, in the form of a pink elephant wearing a straw hat and sipping a glass of iced tea, and then proceeds to explain to me why it waited all of these years to make itself known to me, I would accept that as verifiable evidence that this creator being actually exists.

Is that a satisfactory example?

 

[Trailblazer]

Why doesn't God need to override my free will to make me believe the moon is up there?

Because you have physical eyes whereby you can see the moon.

Keep this in mind: If God is the creator, it was God that granted me my sight, which is what makes me believe the moon is up there. It is by God's design that I take for granted the moon's existence.

Now, by the same token, why can't we also have a spiritual sense that would make God's existence clear to us in the same way the moon's existence is obvious to us?

The simple answer is because God does not choose to do that and God ONLY does what He chooses to do. (There is a good reason why God does not make it clear but I am on the run so I don't have time to explain it right now.)

“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 209

 

[Trailblazer]

How can this be evidence?
Someone can say, i saw a UFO and an alien talked to me.
Its not an evidence the UFO and the alien exists.

It is the "Person" of the Messenger who constitutes the evidence for God....

“He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 49

But of course we have to look at any alleged Messenger and determine if He is really a Messenger of God.

Why do you assume god expects you to do anything?

I do not assume anything. I only know what God expects if it is revealed in scriptures.

 

[Trailblazer]

Okay... if you're refusing to provide any definition of what this creator being that you're proposing exists is, aside from the fact that it's a creator being, then my response is that your definition is too vague for me to provide you with a specific example of the verifiable evidence I would need in order to warrant belief. All I can tell you is that whatever the evidence might be, it would have to be verifiable.

I gave you a definition of my God and asked you how such a God could ever be verified, but maybe you have not seen that post yet.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why would those criteria be sufficient to establish - without previously establishing the existence of God - that the person truly was a Messenger of God?

... or to put it another way: can you demonstrate that it would be impossible for someone to meet - or at least appear to meet - all of those criteria and be either a clever charlatan or someone who's sincere but mistaken?

Let me put it this way: Do you think that any charlatans or sincerely mistaken people could have ever met all those criteria? Moreover what would be their motive for claiming to be a Messenger of God and doing everything that entails, suffering and sacrificing all their time, and getting nothing for themselves in return?

 

[firedragon]

If within the next fifteen minutes this creator being were to manifest itself here in the room I'm in, in the form of a pink elephant wearing a straw hat and sipping a glass of iced tea, and then proceeds to explain to me why it waited all of these years to make itself known to me, I would accept that as verifiable evidence that this creator being actually exists.

Is that a satisfactory example?

So some being appearing today and telling you "I am the creator" is evidence for you that this is the creator being billions of years ago? You would trust the pink elephant in what ever attire as evidence to a creator being some 13 billion years ago created the universe? How would you certify he is telling the truth since the actual event happened long long ago? Is it simply because it seems like a miracle today which is similar to the miracle of creation?

Think about it.

 

[firedragon]

Without further specifications it sounds fairly simple. Let's say you are a creator being that we want proof of actually being who you claim to be: You tell us what you are going to create and then one second later it shows up out of thin air in front of us. It would just have to something pretty huge just to make sure it is not a magic trick.
That's sufficient to establish you as a creator being.

If I perform a miracle today you would simply embrace my claim that I am the creator being billions of years ago?

 

[F1fan]

I do not make any claims, I only pass along the claims of Baha'u'llah.

Sorry but you often refer to how evidence is good enough for YOU, so when you defend your beliefs you are representing yourself. I'm not sure why you are trying to avoid being accountable for your own posts and beliefs.

Do note that we don't assign Baha'u'llah and special status, so what he has said or written carries no authority. We still assess your posts/beliefs/claims along with whatever you post of Baha'u'llah. We offer criticisms if they are warranted.

If you say someone committed a fallacy the right thing is to explain how they committed it, yet few atheists ever explain how I committed any fallacies. It is only fair to explain because otherwise I cannot defend myself.

You have had your fallacies explained over and over again, and you ignore it and keep making the same mistakes.

As I just said to @Nimos, that is a belief so it cannot be proven.

You said you believe God exists, so God can't be proven? So you can't refer to God as if it is real, yes?

No, you say I commit fallacies and then you never explain what they are or how I committed them. This is wholly unjust.

You made a post today where you said "That is not a logical fallacy because what God does is not subject to logic. God bestows favor on whomsoever He chooses." Here you are avoiding my challenge by implying a God in fact exists and has power over logic. Do you really think this is good thinking? And look at your next comment:

I cannot prove that God exists, nobody can.

So if you can't prove a God exists then you can't assert it has any authority or power like you did above.

You can't have things both ways. Either acknowledge we can't know a god exists and make sure you don't post any details about it, or claim a God exists and go ahead and post all the claims you want (which will be questioned).

I don't care if you believe what I believe and I don't expect you to. Why would I?

Then I suggest you don't suck up what is sufficient evidence for you versus what is insufficient for others, because that is you making this all about YOU and what you believe.

Why do you keep asking me for something you know I don't have?

You used God as a reason to avoid answering my criticism about your illogical thinking, so if you are going to use god that way I'm going to ask for evidence until you realize you can't hide behind your belief.

 

[F1fan]

I can post it to you but you will not view it the same way I do, as extraordinary, because you are a different person.

If the evidence needs special interpretation and isn't sufficient for objective thinkers, then there's something wrong with the evidence.

A long time ago, I got tired of people asking me for evidence so I put it all in one post.

Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah

Did it create a lot of converts?

 

[F1fan]

The simple answer is because God does not choose to do that and God ONLY does what He chooses to do.

Here you go again. You post that you only believe a God exists and can't be proven, but you are posting "facts" about this God?

You are making it all up. Or you are repeating what someone else made up.

 

[Aupmanyav]

You have tagged yourself an atheist and Hindu, just curios how does that work?

Works perfectly well for me. Advaita - non-duality for all things in the universe - energy, atoms, molecules and larger aggregations. So a grain of sand is atoms, and so is a cockroach or myself (or even you). No God required.
That is why Hindu scriptures said 'Aham Brahmasmi' (I am Brahman) and 'Tat twam asi' (So are you). Brahman / energy being the substrate of all that we perceive or do not perceive.
You may read more here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_atheism

 

[CG Didymus]

“Whoso maketh efforts for Us,” he shall enjoy the blessings conferred by the words: “In Our Ways shall We assuredly guide him.”” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 266-267

The scriptures that the Messengers reveal are accessible to everyone.

I did not say that everyone will find the scriptures convincing...
I would not be convinced by the Bible but I was convinced by the Writings of Baha'u'llah because it is first person and it is not anecdotes.

It's as anecdotal to me as the Quran is.

There are facts and there is information that indicate that my belief is true.

Admittedly, Baha'is have a responsibility to carry the message of Baha'u'llah but after that has been done our work is done, unless people have questions.

I talk to them because they talk to me

One of those messengers did predict that certain things would happen on such and such dates...

I was referring to predictions made by a Messenger of God.

You said: One of those messengers should predict that it will happen on such and such dates...
I said: One of those messengers did predict that certain things would happen on such and such dates...

The name of that Messenger was Baha'u'llah. Baha’u’llah predicted many things that later came to pass. In this book, which can be read online, is a list of 30 specific things Baha’u’llah predicted that later came to pass: The Challenge of Baha'u'llah

God cannot come down to earth to verify that His Messenger is actually a Messenger

That is written so poorly as to be illegible. What you need to do is to find the exact prophecies. Making sure that they are quoted accurately from the original source. Then we can see if they actually came true or not. Too many of them are overly vague.

The Baháʼí teachings state that there is only one God and that his essence is absolutely inaccessible from the physical realm of existence and that, therefore, his reality is completely unknowable. Thus, all of humanity's conceptions of God which have been derived throughout history are mere manifestations of the human mind and not at all reflective of the nature of God's essence. While God's essence is inaccessible, a subordinate form of knowledge is available by way of mediation by divine messengers, known as Manifestations of God.

God in the Baháʼí Faith

they are not prophecies that were written for the purpose of Baha'u'llah proving He was a Prophet/Messenger of God. Rather, they were predictions that He made during the course of His life. For some people those predictions constitute evidence that Baha'u'llah was a Prophet/Messenger of God, but that is not why they were revealed.

Everything that Baha'u'llah predicted came true because He was inerrant. It is all recorded in history so it can easily be proven.

Bahá’u’lláh asked no one to accept His statements and His tokens blindly.

we shall endeavor to show whether Bahá’u’lláh’s claim to Prophethood stands or falls by application of these tests: whether the things that He had spoken have followed and come to pass,

Can I interrupt and ask you. Did Bahaullah say (is it written) that god can't come down to verify himself as the messenger from god?

I was wondering if in Bahaullah's writings, did god say he couldn't come to earth to verify Bahaullah is the messenger. I'm not sure how Bahai's define their god.

But what do you mean come down? I am not a Bahai, but I know how Bahai's define God.

I don't know what she meant by come down but I used that wording to ask if Bahaullah was the one who said it or not. It wasn't my choice in words, so I don't know.

I shall leave it for the Bahai lady you asked it from.

God does leave empirical evidence. The religions of God that the Messengers of God establish that we can directly observe and get from our senses are the evidence that God exists.

“The greatest bestowal of God in the world of humanity is religion; for assuredly the divine teachings of religion are above all other sources of instruction and development to man. Religion confers upon man eternal life and guides his footsteps in the world of morality. It opens the doors of unending happiness and bestows everlasting honor upon the human kingdom. It has been the basis of all civilization and progress in the history of mankind.

We will therefore investigate religion, seeking from an unprejudiced standpoint to discover whether it is the source of illumination, the cause of development and the animating impulse of all human advancement. We will investigate independently, free from the restrictions of dogmatic beliefs, blind imitations of ancestral forms, and the influence of mere human opinion; for as we enter this question we will find some who declare that religion is a cause of uplift and betterment in the world, while others assert just as positively that it is a detriment and a source of degradation to mankind. We must give these questions thorough and impartial consideration so that no doubt or uncertainty may linger in our minds regarding them.” Bahá’í World Faith, p. 270

Ultimately, it was the Revelation of Baha'u'llah is what convinced me that God exists.

I did not originally become a Baha'i because I believed in God, I became a Baha'i because I believed that the Baha'i Faith was a true religion. I did not think about whether Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God or whether God exists back in those days. I only got serious in wanting to know about God about nine years ago.

What absolutely convinced me that God exists and allowed me to know about God and Messengers of God is the book entitled Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh.

Evidence is evidence and all people assign different meanings to the evidence. Some people believe it means nothing and some people believe that it proves that the Baha'i Faith is a true religion.

I do not understand your question. God would not come down to verify Himself as a Messenger from God because God is not a Messenger from God. God is God and God never comes down to earth.

Below are seven reasons why more people have not recognized the evidence for Baha’u’llah,

Propaganda.

There are facts that surround the Revelation of Baha'u'llah

You cannot personally verify the facts about Baha'u'llah because he is no longer alive. You have to verify them by reading the history. You can verify the facts and information about Baha'u'llah by reading about them in books or online.

There is witness testimony, and there was more than one witness. That is all recorded in the history of the Baha'i Faith.

You can check the facts about Baha'u'llah by reading about them.

I do not make the fantastic claims, Baha'u'llah made the fantastic claims. I just report what He claimed.

Baha’u’llah’s Two Bold Claims

All of which leads us back to Baha’u’llah, who made two very bold claims. First, he declared he was God’s messenger for the next one thousand years, having the same divine authority, the same Holy Spirit, the same divine power, as Moses, Christ, Muhammad, and the other founders of the major world religions:

Baha’u’llah made a second and even more challenging claim. He declared he was the promised world messiah foretold in all the prophecies, in all the holy books, of all the religions of the world – the one promised to come on the Day of Judgment, the Day of God, the Time of the End, the End of the World, to establish the kingdom of God on Earth.

So... you were attracted to Baha'u'llah's message, and this message includes belief in God, so you believe in God?

It's mostly you TB that brings up the Baha'i Faith and sometimes some people ask you about the Baha'i Faith.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It's mostly you TB that brings up the Baha'i Faith and sometimes some people ask you about the Baha'i Faith.

TB?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Let me put it this way: Do you think that any charlatans or sincerely mistaken people could have ever met all those criteria?

Yes.

Moreover what would be their motive for claiming to be a Messenger of God and doing everything that entails, suffering and sacrificing all their time, and getting nothing for themselves in return?

Your criteria didn't mention anything about suffering or about getting nothing in return.

Edit: now that I've answered your questions, how about you answer mine?

 

[QuestioningMind]

So some being appearing today and telling you "I am the creator" is evidence for you that this is the creator being billions of years ago? You would trust the pink elephant in what ever attire as evidence to a creator being some 13 billion years ago created the universe? How would you certify he is telling the truth since the actual event happened long long ago? Is it simply because it seems like a miracle today which is similar to the miracle of creation?

Think about it.

My apologies... I meant to say if such a being makes an appearance and then proceeds to demonstrate the creation of a universe, THAT would be sufficient evidence. But this proposed creator being didn't even make an appearance as a pink elephant, so I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for that to happen.

 

[Ludi]

No, I meant that I want the same things that I believe God wants.

.You are right, you should only desire what God wants, and the closer you live to that truth, the closer you come to God.

 

[Trailblazer]

My apologies... I meant to say if such a being makes an appearance and then proceeds to demonstrate the creation of a universe, THAT would be sufficient evidence.

You are not asking for much are you?
Baha'u'llah wrote about what would happen if God showed up and it ain't pretty.
Needless to say, the price you would have to pay for "objective evidence" is pretty steep.
Sure, you would then know that God exists but you would no longer exist.

“Were the Eternal Essence to manifest all that is latent within Him, were He to shine in the plentitude of His glory, none would be found to question His power or repudiate His truth. Nay, all created things would be so dazzled and thunderstruck by the evidences of His light as to be reduced to utter nothingness. How, then, can the godly be differentiated under such circumstances from the froward?” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 71-72

 

[Trailblazer]

It's mostly you TB that brings up the Baha'i Faith and sometimes some people ask you about the Baha'i Faith.

It is absolutely untrue that I bring it up.

All I do is respond to posts, day in day out, and I am sick to death of it.
It was not ME who turned this thread into an 'evidence for the Baha'i Faith' thread.
The evidence that it was not me who did that is right on this thread.

It is unjust to accuse people of things they did not do.