CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Do you claim what you believe about Baha'u'llah is true? Or, do you know, without a doubt, what you believe about Baha'u'llah is true?
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Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?
- Thread starter Trailblazer
- Start date
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That's true, I have said that I know. That denotes certitude of what I believe.
These are not yes or no questions. I think my beliefs are true and I believe they are right in the sense of 1. but not in the sense of 2. because they cannot be proven to be true or correct as a fact.
Right
1. morally good, justified, or acceptable.
"I hope we're doing the right thing"
2. true or correct as a fact.
"I'm not sure I know the right answer"
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=right+means
As I have told you before what would convince me otherwise is if I found out that Baha'u'llah was not a Messenger of God but rather that He made a false claim, for whatever reason.
The reason we cannot objectively verify that God exists and Baha'u'llah was His Messenger is drop dead obvious to any logical person. We cannot locate God with a GPS tracker and examine God in order to objectively verify that God exists, and if we cannot objectively verify that God exists how could we ever know that God sent Messengers?
However, I can verify for myself that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God because I can prove to myself the truth of His claims as by evidence and testimony, and once I have verified that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God then I know that God exists.
What is the full meaning of Verify?
to prove the truth of, as by evidence or testimony; confirm; substantiate: Events verified his prediction. to ascertain the truth or correctness of, as by examination, research, or comparison: to verify a spelling.
Verify Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com
Thus my belief that God tests us, we do not get to test God, is not verifiable. However, it is logical to believe that if we accept that God is omnipotent and I will leave you to figure out why.
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I know, without a doubt, that what I believe about Baha'u'llah is true.
I do not claim that what I believe about Baha'u'llah is true.
Azrael Antilla
Active Member
Your absolute conviction is both fascinating and entirely alien to me. In my paradigm, there are no absolutes only probabilities.
Azrael Antilla
Active Member
Research what? Precisely?
Azrael Antilla
Active Member
Indeed. I see no reason to believe in any Gods anyway. They offer no answers to any questions I have. I do not require their assistance, in any matter. I do not see the need to invoke Gods to explain anything whatsoever. I do not seek certainty or comfort or a sense of belonging. I do not recognise the spiritual or otherwise authority of other humans. I am your ultimate lost cause I am sorry to report. As far as theism goes. I am a devout atheist. As it were.
rational experiences
Veteran Member
The human theist exists first....as a thinker.
Says O God exists first earth.
No man is God.
Why make the statement?
Because you claimed you were God.
O earth God.
Heavens God
Theist says God is in my past first before me. As God states.
The God.
So how are you human a God.
Theist then tries to claim how a God reaction a spirit existed before a human that became said human.
Satanist theists claim I was a cloud angel first.
So in modern science science taught science that first humans on origin earth a long time ago chose science.
Destroyed all life on earth. Why we fear Satanism and Satanists. Just humans but scientists with machines
So archaeology dug up machine evidence inside of frozen instant fusion...it had to have been hot for no ice to exist first.
Dinosaurs lived.
Cooling put human memory...human into Satan angel cloud amassing records. Angel images look human like.
As after ice age man hearing human cloud caused recorded sciences satanic pyramid memories about his earth conversions before. So he rebuilt the technology.
Attacked life again ice earth God saviour saved us. Whereas before in a no ice life he burnt us to death.
Why ice was the life saviour as Moses teaching. Human aware life teaching. Reason why mutated life was inherited as ice saved our life. The reasoning.
As old man memories of God told him how.
Why human theists claimed first I was a human Satan cloud angel irrationally.
Possessed by sciences human memories. The warning.
As human is a human is not a reaction nor are we clouds.
Human science memories were cloud recorded.
Says O God exists first earth.
No man is God.
Why make the statement?
Because you claimed you were God.
O earth God.
Heavens God
Theist says God is in my past first before me. As God states.
The God.
So how are you human a God.
Theist then tries to claim how a God reaction a spirit existed before a human that became said human.
Satanist theists claim I was a cloud angel first.
So in modern science science taught science that first humans on origin earth a long time ago chose science.
Destroyed all life on earth. Why we fear Satanism and Satanists. Just humans but scientists with machines
So archaeology dug up machine evidence inside of frozen instant fusion...it had to have been hot for no ice to exist first.
Dinosaurs lived.
Cooling put human memory...human into Satan angel cloud amassing records. Angel images look human like.
As after ice age man hearing human cloud caused recorded sciences satanic pyramid memories about his earth conversions before. So he rebuilt the technology.
Attacked life again ice earth God saviour saved us. Whereas before in a no ice life he burnt us to death.
Why ice was the life saviour as Moses teaching. Human aware life teaching. Reason why mutated life was inherited as ice saved our life. The reasoning.
As old man memories of God told him how.
Why human theists claimed first I was a human Satan cloud angel irrationally.
Possessed by sciences human memories. The warning.
As human is a human is not a reaction nor are we clouds.
Human science memories were cloud recorded.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
My absolute conviction that God exists and Baha'u'llah was His Messenger did not come to me overnight, it developed over a period of years. However, I still have uncertainties regarding some of the alleged the attributes of God because I do not accept what I cannot understand or what makes no sense to me.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Everything that surrounds the Person and the Revelation of Baha'u'llah.
Below is what Baha’u’llah wrote about the 'evidence' that establishes the truth of His claims. Baha’u’llah enjoined us to look at His own Self (His character), His Revelation (His mission and works, which can be seen in Baha'i history), and His words (His Writings).
“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106
His own Self is who He was, His character (His qualities). That can be determined by reading about Him in books such as the following: The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4
His Revelation is what He accomplished (His Mission on earth/ the history of His Cause)
That can be determined by reading about His mission in books such as the following:
God Passes By (1844-1944)
The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4, which cover the 40 years of His Mission, from 1853-1892.
The words He hath revealed is what He wrote can be found in books that are posted online: The Works of Bahá'u'lláh
Azrael Antilla
Active Member
This individual is the only valid messenger of (creator) God? Excluding all others like Mohammed or Jesus?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
You are different from the average atheist I have encountered on forums. What most atheists say is they do not believe in God because there is no evidence that God exists.
What questions do you have that you think that God would not have an answer to? I believe that God is all-knowing so God has all the answers. Some of these answers are revealed to us by the Messengers of God whereas some are not, and there is a reason for that; we would be overwhelmed if the Messenger of God revealed everything He knew, everything that God revealed to Him
“Oh, would that the world could believe Me! Were all the things that lie enshrined within the heart of Bahá, and which the Lord, His God, the Lord of all names, hath taught Him, to be unveiled to mankind, every man on earth would be dumbfounded.
How great the multitude of truths which the garment of words can never contain! How vast the number of such verities as no expression can adequately describe, whose significance can never be unfolded, and to which not even the remotest allusions can be made! How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the appointed time is come! Even as it hath been said: “Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who hear it.”
Of these truths some can be disclosed only to the extent of the capacity of the repositories of the light of Our knowledge, and the recipients of Our hidden grace.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 176
Scientific and religious Truth are both relative to the times in which they are discovered/revealed by God. In science, as new discoveries are made they will often replace what was previously considered factual. In religion, Truth from God is additive, and is revealed in stages as humanity is able to understand more and as humanity needs more. God is all-knowing so God knows everything, but if All of God’s Truth was revealed to us all at once, we would not be able to understand it would be of little use to us. We would simply be overwhelmed with too much information. Truth needs to be suited to the capacity of the recipients living at the time.
You are a lot like me in many ways although not like me in other ways. I have always been very self-sufficient and I still am. I do not require assistance from God. I seek certainty but I do not seek comfort or a sense of belonging and that is one reason why I am not active in my religion. I do recognize the spiritual authority of the Messenger of God as superseding any other human authority because I believe that the Messenger is not only human but also divine by nature. I do see the need to invoke the Messenger of God to explain spiritual and moral things, but I believe that science and other disciplines are perfectly adequate to explain anything related to the material world.
You said that you are the ultimate lost cause as far as theism goes, a devout atheist. Is that for all the reasons you stated above or are you also an atheist because you do not see any evidence for God? Would you reconsider if you saw evidence for God, or are you simply disinterested in believing in God?
Please forgive me all the questions. Psychology is my academic background so I am very curious about people, how they think and feel and why they think and feel that way.
I consider that some claims are not made without the evidence. Not all claims are the same and some are made knowing the Claim.contains the evidence.v
Regards Tony.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, not at all. I believe that there were many other Messengers of God who have come throughout history, but they all came from the one true God. The primary Messengers of God are shown on this chart below.
Tiberius
Well-Known Member
So you've said:
And you've said:
Do you not see the contradiction there?
I think it's quite clear that I was using the word in terms of sense 2. Can you please answer the questions, yes or no.
Somehow, I don't think so. Since you've already admitted several times that you have no testable evidence to support your claims, it is clear that your position is one that you did not come to through any rational means. Since you didn't reason yourself into that position, I don't see how you can say that you'll reason yourself out of it.
And that's exactly what we'd expect if God doesn't exist.
Deciding that your opinion based on untestable evidence is true does not count as "verification."
And if we accept that God does not exist, we get a much easier explanation why our tests for God all fail. And we can also see that what is viewed as God testing us is nothing more than random events that benefit or disadvantage us without any external motivation.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
God and so-claimed prophets, sons, messengers, manifestations, mahdis, themselves, are a big question mark because no verifiable evidence is available.
'I won't show you or I won't tell you because you will not be able to bear it' is a lame excuse. It hides all sort of things - 'I myself do not know, that is why I am using highfallutin words to confuse you', 'I have no new information to give to you. I am just bottling old wine in a new bottle to fool you to become my follower', etc.
Let God or his representatives show me what they are worth of, and let me see if I fall dead or go mad, let the risk be mine.
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Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Yeah, this individual should be considered more important than all the others before him because he has the latest message from Allah, though he did not give even a shred of evidence. There are others after him, who too claim to be the latest representatives of Allah, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of the Ahmadiyyas, for example. He claimed to be the returning Jesus, the mahdi. Just like the gentleman in question, he too did not produce any verifiable evidence. This is a set pattern in Abrahamic religions.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
They are a big question mark for you because you need verifiable evidence but they are not a question mark for me since I don't need verifiable evidence.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, because you won't be able to bear it is not the reason God does not show you or tell you. Below is the reason.
God could have made all people into believers since God is omnipotent, the passage below explains why He did not do so.
“He Who is the Day Spring of Truth is, no doubt, fully capable of rescuing from such remoteness wayward souls and of causing them to draw nigh unto His court and attain His Presence. “If God had pleased He had surely made all men one people.” His purpose, however, is to enable the pure in spirit and the detached in heart to ascend, by virtue of their own innate powers, unto the shores of the Most Great Ocean, that thereby they who seek the Beauty of the All-Glorious may be distinguished and separated from the wayward and perverse. Thus hath it been ordained by the all-glorious and resplendent Pen…”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 71
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Trailblazer said: I know, without a doubt, that what I believe about Baha'u'llah is true.
I do not claim that what I believe about Baha'u'llah is true.
I know, without a doubt, that what I believe about Baha'u'llah is true -- is not a claim. Clearly, it is only about what I know and believe. I did not say that what I know and believe is true or is a fact. That would be a claim.