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Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
To me, He means Contagious in a sense that cancer gets spread throughout the body. For example someone who has thyroid cancer, can get brain cancer or other types of cancer, because the cancer cells move through the blood stream to other locations of body. You are reading Abdu'l-Baha statements in a different way.

That makes sense, as Abdul'baha always talked about humanity as the Body of Man.

The Baha'i Writings often compare mankind to a human body composed of many parts and cells and how illness overtakes that body and needs a doctor.

Also that the cancer of covenant breaking sometimes needs to be cut out as it can spread through the body of mankind. @joelr

Regards Tony
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
That sounds a lot like a special pleading fallacy to me?
Special pleading is an informal fallacy wherein one cites something as an exception to a general or universal principle, without justifying the special exception.[1][2][3][4][5] It is the application of a double standard.[6][7]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_pleading

No, it is not special pleading because the exception is justified since evidence for religion and how we go about investigating a religion is not the same as other things that we research and investigate for the reasons noted below. The method for investigating a religion is wholly different from the scientific method..
Can you demonstrate an accurate and specific version of this method? Only if it is simply putting oneself into a suggestible and biased state, then we could use that method to believe just about anything.
The method does not involve putting oneself in a suggestible and biased state. It involves being open-minded but also involves scrutiny.

Baha'is believe in what is called independent investigation of truth, which means that one should always investigate the truth for themselves if they want to know the truth. People should never take anyone else's word for anything and that is why I have no burden of proof to prove anything to anyone.

"The first Baha’i principle is the independent investigation of reality. Not found in any sacred Book of the past, it abolishes the need for clergy and sets us free from imitation and blind adherence to unexamined, dogmatic beliefs. Baha’is believe that no soul should follow ancestral or traditional beliefs without first questioning and examining their own inner landscape. Instead, the first Baha’i principle gives each individual the right and the duty to investigate and decide what they believe on their own."

Independent Investigation of Truth

If you want to know HOW to independently investigate the Truth, you can watch this short video. It is only five minutes long.

Does the method involve any objective evidence, is that evidence testable and falsifiable? Does the method involve any kind of disinterested peer review of the data and the conclusions?
There is objective evidence but it is not testable and falsifiable the way the scientific method works.

This method does not involve peer review because it is an independent investigation and we do not want to be influenced by other people, nor do we need other people to approve or agree with the results of our investigation. Rather, we want to come to our own conclusions, independent of others. That does not mean we cannot listen to other people's opinions, only that the decision about what to believe should be our own decision since we are accountable to God for our own choices.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Personally I see prophecies are just one tool of many to show us we are more than flesh, more than this material world.

I think I know the answer by now, but can you demonstrate anything like objective evidence for that claim?

So I prefer to take guidance from what I have found is flawless guidance.

How flawless can it be, if it doesn't help you produce anything beyond religious platitudes and unevidenced assertions? Or does your use of flawless here differ from the dictionary definition?

Human beings have a propensity for superstition, and for creating imaginary deities, that seems like a claim we can demsonrate objective evidence for, would you agree?

Can you demonstrate any objective difference between the deity you claim is real, and all the others?
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
...

Can you demonstrate any objective difference between the deity you claim is real, and all the others?

People and not just for religion can get away with claiming objective evidence as long what they do, can be done either subjectively or objectively otherwise.

Take burning witches or how in the USSR people were charged with crimes against, what was supposed to be objective, namely communism. Or how if you polled enough people of a non-religious stance, that some would claim ethics is objective, yet give contradictory claims about how it is done and some would claim ethics is not objective.

As a human in a functionally non-religious culture this is not unique to religion. So yes, you can do it with religion, but no it doesn't go away just because the claims are non-religious.
But off course everyone to his/her own.
 
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TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
How flawless can it be, if it doesn't help you produce anything beyond religious platitudes and unevidenced assertions? Or does your use of flawless here differ from the dictionary definition?

No matter how perfect the guidance is, it is subject to the ability of those that use it.

Regards Tony
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
it is not special pleading because the exception is justified since evidence for religion

Well I was responding to a bare claim, so it was a special pleading fallacy.

how we go about investigating a religion is not the same as other things

The method for investigating a religion is wholly different from the scientific method..

Two bare claims that tell what it is not, but tells me nothing about this method you referred to?

The method does not involve putting oneself in a suggestible and biased state. It involves being open-minded but also involves scrutiny.

Two more bare claims.

People should never take anyone else's word for anything and that is why I have no burden of proof to prove anything to anyone.

The conclusion doesn't follow from the initial statement sorry, all claims carry an epistemological burden of proof. Otherwise we can claim literally anything, and even contradictory claims.

If you want to know HOW to independently investigate the Truth, you can watch this short video. It is only five minutes long.

I watched it through and it made little sense to me sorry, what does "the truth is the truth is the truth" even mean? The narrator keeps mentioning truth as you and others do, as if it something you have, and is absolute, but can't be demonstrated. Something is true if it is accordance with fact or reality, but you have demonstrated no facts?

the video makes a lot of claims, like the assertion that "a core truth si that god is all about love", but this planting the horse firmly behind the cart, as you'd first have to demonstrate that a deity exists, and again nothing you have said offers a shred of objective evidence, so the claim has no objective value?

It challenges other religions, but then so do most religions, especially monotheisms, and it seems presuppositional to me, so as I said starting from the inherently bias position that a deity exists, rather than challenging that claim. Which is ironic as you and the video suggest I should not just accept the beliefs of others, I don't need any religious beliefs for that.

It asserts repeatedly that "each person is individually responsible for discovering the truth for themselves".

This would be the very definition of basing a belief on subjective opinion, and the phrase "the truth" which is repeated like a mantra seems rather silly to me, can I determine if a complex mathematical proof is correct on my own? Can I ascertain if species evolution is true on my own? Or whether complex scientific theories that an entire lifetime of scrutiny by someone with a sufficient intellect and expertise couldn't hope to entirely understand? That's a preposterous idea, though i can see the appeal some people may find in that idea, I find it more than a little facile sorry.

4:29 "They should never believe something just because it has been told to them by a "so called expert"."

So you guys don't see doctors then? Or take your car to a mechanic? that's demonstrably absurd, expertise can be challenges and questioned of course, but we live in an era where we have to accept that people specialise in specific areas of knowledge.

The video didn't offer me anything but vague platitudes, and unevidenced assertions sorry? I'm none the wiser about what your belief in a deity is based on?

There is objective evidence but it is not testable and falsifiable the way the scientific method works.

If it's not testable or falsifiable then I'd suggest it can't be objective, but again you have made the claim it exists, but failed to demsonrate it? I feel like I am chasing my tail here. I don't care what it is not like or similar to either.

You believe a deity exists yes?

Could you please demsonrate the most compelling objective reason or evidence that you think supports that belief?

This method does not involve peer review because it is an independent investigation

So it is subjective opinion by definition.

we do not want to be influenced by other people, nor do we need other people to approve or agree with the results of our investigation.

That seems very closed minded to me. Ringfencing beliefs off from scrutiny hardly suggests they are robustly investigated. You may not care, but again one can believe literally anything if it isn't based on objective and falsifiable evidence, and worse still we never submit it to the scrutiny of others.

we want to come to our own conclusions, independent of others.

What one wants to believe is not necessarily true, or in accordance with reality, and if one insists it is not just true, but "the truth", and then ringfences it from all scrutiny and criticism then that is the very definition of closed minded.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Then it is another meaning of objective you use than @Sheldon.

I have already said that many posts ago.

There is objective evidence that is not the scientific method.

It has been offered it is a waste of time asking for scientific objective evidence, unless and until science also embraces the Spirit behind humanity.

Regards Tony
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
I have already said that many posts ago.

There is objective evidence that is not the scientific method.

It has been offered it is a waste of time asking for scientific objective evidence, unless and until science also embraces the Spirit behind humanity.

Regards Tony

Yeah, and that is what makes it subjective to some of us.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
I think I know the answer by now, but can you demonstrate anything like objective evidence for that claim?

Yes I can for me, but they will not be for you.

Do I get to decide that, or do you get to decide it for me?

No matter how perfect the guidance is, it is subject to the ability of those that use it.

That's a no true Scotsman fallacy, and you said it was infallible, so this claim contradicts that one, unless as I said infallible means something different here than the dictionary definition.

Infallible
adjective

1. Incapable of making mistakes or being wrong.

So which is it, it is infallible, or not?
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
There is objective evidence that is not the scientific method.

And can we expect you demsonrate any at any point?

it is a waste of time asking for scientific objective evidence, unless and until science also embraces the Spirit behind humanity.

I've not specified scientific, only something approaching objective evidence.

Science doesn't embrace things, it gathers data and tests it through a strict method of scrutiny to remove as much subjectivity as it possibly can. A basic principle of the method though is that all unfalsifiable claims are rejected as unscientific, as they can teach us nothing, or as they are sometimes labelled "not even wrong".

Now I would greatly appreciate it if you would please demonstrate what you consider to be the most compelling evidence you have for an extant deity?
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
And it is not objective if the rest of us can do everyday life differently.

That would.only mean one may have not taken an objective look at the evidence.

They may have used their subjective frames of references and not looked at the topic without preconceived ideas.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Do I get to decide that, or do you get to decide it for me?

Do you really need me to answer that when you have been told that a Baha'i teaching is for the independent search for Truth.

It has to be your search.

Baha'u'llah has a book called the Hidden Words and to me it opens the door as to how we need to search the evidence.

https://www.bahai.org/library/authoritative-texts/bahaullah/hidden-words/

№1 from Arabic

O SON OF SPIRIT!
My first counsel is this: Possess a pure, kindly and radiant heart, that thine may be a sovereignty ancient, imperishable and everlasting.

№2 from Arabic

O SON OF SPIRIT!
The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes.

So you will not find any objective evidence until you do that search for your own self and use the method you choose to use. That is the only way.

There is no one set way to find the evidence, but by your own search.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
So which is it, it is infallible, or not?

I offered that the word, the guidance is flawless, I said we in our practice of it are not.

That cannot be morphed together to ask the question you have asked.

That is as clear as day.

Regards Tony
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
The reason we reject the others is because they fail to meet even the minimum criteria for a Messenger of God.
A claim is no reason to believe that a person is a Messenger because anyone can make a claim. It is the evidence that supports the claim that gives us a reason to believe someone is a Messenger.
When did Adam, Noah, Abraham and Buddha ever claim to be a messenger of God?
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
I see I am by allowing you to go and undertake a search for your own self.

You want to make endless unevidenced assertions, and expect to go research their validity for you. Why would I waste my time when you can offer nothing at all in the way of objective evidence?

Ample information has been provided.

Cryptic, vague platitudes and endless unevidenced assertions are not ample information. Thanks for your time anyway.
 
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