Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[Trailblazer]

Checking carefully for consistency within the Writings. The Writings have the feel of being from God. I feel their potency.

The Writings of Baha'u'llah alone would be enough proof for me. Of course the Person of Baha'u'llah and the history of the Faith are also proof to me.

 

[Trailblazer]

Because you are claiming that the world is a certain way.

Mr B was a messenger from God. That is a claim.

Mr B fulfilled Biblical prophecies. That is another claim.

None of those are claims. All of those are beliefs.

Belief: an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=belief+means

Claim: state or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=claim+means

Please show me where I ever asserted that my beliefs are true.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Do you take lessons from Deepak Chopra in how to use many words to say something that is so indecipherable?

How do you know this:

Wait...

Do you think reality and truth are two different things?

Reality is true. Truth is real.

If something is real, then it is true. If the elephant in my living room is real, then it is true that there is an elephant in my living room.

Truth is literally defined as what is real.

I don't know what idea you are going on about, but makes no sense at all to me.

Something is real, therefore it is true; is not a valid deduction and thus false as logical deductions.
I need more than you claiming that:
Reality is true. Truth is real.

Here is variant some religious people use.
Reality is God. God is real.

Now I don't accept your version without evidence and I don't accept the religious one without evidence.

 

[Sheldon]

used by the Baha'is to say that religious superstitions should not be believed.

TB and I were discussing the supposed virgin birth of Jesus, Baha'is believe that

Irony overload, yes the contradictions are inevitable really, I've been asking for something tangible for ages, and I'm about done, as all I get are endless unevidenced assertions, not unlike all other religions tbh.

 

[Sheldon]

None of those are claims. All of those are beliefs.

Belief: an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=belief+means

Claim: state or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=claim+means

Please show me where I ever asserted that my beliefs are true.

Assert
verb

1. state a fact or belief confidently and forcefully.

Dear oh dear...

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Irony overload, yes the contradictions are inevitable really, I've been asking for something tangible for ages, and I'm about done, as all I get are endless unevidenced assertions, not unlike all other religions tbh.

So please make it tangible that science is the best method we have and not based on what you subjectively evaluate as the best.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Assert
verb

1. state a fact or belief confidently and forcefully.

Dear oh dear...

I once went over with her that if she wants to claim that something she said was a belief she needs a qualifier before the belief. For example:

It seems to me . . .

In my opinion . . .

I think that . . .

Or, and this one should have been obvious:

It is my belief . . .

 

[Sheldon]

I do not think it wise to use these passages against individuals, but I also see they need to be aware of them, if the keep demanding proof. It could be this is why objective proof can not be found, the wrong eyes and ears are being used.

Before we talk of proof a single shred of objective evidence would be a start, and that part is clearly a no true Scotsman fallacy.

You can hold any belief you want, with zero evidence, you can assert it publicly, but it is demonstrably irrational to then blame those who don't share that belief, as if the complete absence of any objective evidence is somehow a bias on their part.

FYI, as it keeps getting ignored, claims are not evidence.

 

[Sheldon]

So please make it tangible that science is the best method we have and not based on what you subjectively evaluate as the best.

The objectively quantifiable successes, and I already answered this,

This time I will just limit myself to science's successes in a single year 2020...

Or we could point out science has eradicated polio, cured countless diseases, put humans on the moon, helped create every single piece of technology you can point at, including the computer, and internet you're using, and the electricity that powers it. The entirety of medical research, germ theory , the theory of relativity, species evolution, gravity etc etc

If there's a method you think has been more successful I am as always keeping an open mind.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

The objectively quantifiable successes, and I already answered this,

This time I will just limit myself to science's successes in a single year 2020...

If there's a method you think has been more successful I am as always keeping an open mind.

I really don't think that what I think subjectively or what you subjectively think differently is science.
So we subjectively believe in 2 different kinks of science.

 

[Sheldon]

The Writings of Baha'u'llah alone would be enough proof for me. Of course the Person of Baha'u'llah and the history of the Faith are also proof to me.

This much is clear, but if I claimed wizards were real because the writing of JK Rowling were sufficient proof for me, I doubt you'd be inclined to start believing in wizards, even if you read all the Harry Potter books, though I doubt my bare claim would prompt you to bother.

So do you see the problem?

 

[Sheldon]

How do you know this:



Something is real, therefore it is true; is not a valid deduction and thus false as logical deductions.
I need more than you claiming that:
Reality is true. Truth is real.

Here is variant some religious people use.
Reality is God. God is real.

Now I don't accept your version without evidence and I don't accept the religious one without evidence.

Well we have a method whose well evidenced and testable and falsifiable model match reality, so I'll go with that.

Now can you show me any evidence that reality is an illusion? Otherwise I'll have to disbelieve the idea. Of course it sounds like an unfalsifiable concept, so I will also have to remain an agnostic about it.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

This much is clear, but if I claimed wizards were real because the writing of JK Rowling were sufficient proof for me, I doubt you'd be inclined to start believing in wizards, even if you read all the Harry Potter books, though I doubt my bare claim would prompt you to bother.

So do you see the problem?

Yeah, and do you see that problem in that how some people think and write that science is the best method we have, doesn't make the claim science?!!

 

[Sheldon]

I really don't think that what I think subjectively or what you subjectively think differently is science.

Straw man fallacy, how you do love to make these?

So we subjectively believe in 2 different kinks of science.

A bare claim, in rebuttal to quantifiable objective evidence for a fraction of the many successes of science? You asked for tangible evidence I provided it, and not teh bare assertions I keep getting.

Try again...and this time stop using dishonest straw men and assigning them to me.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Well we have a method whose well evidenced and testable and falsifiable model match reality, so I'll go with that.

Now can you show me any evidence that reality is an illusion? Otherwise I'll have to disbelieve the idea. Of course it sounds like an unfalsifiable concept, so I will also have to remain an agnostic about it.

It doesn't match reality. It matches a part of reality: https://undsci.berkeley.edu/article/0_0_0/whatisscience_12

Stop claiming I claim that reality is an illusion. Reality is a combination of the subjective and objective in regards to humans:
Notice the wording of this: "that there is an objective reality shared by all rational observers."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_science#Current_approaches

It says shared and objective reality.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Straw man fallacy, how you do love to make these?



A bare claim, in rebuttal to quantifiable objective evidence for a fraction of the many successes of science? You asked for tangible evidence I provided it, and not teh bare assertions I keep getting.

Try again...and this time stop using dishonest straw men and assigning them to me.

Here is what I think: That you think that science is the best method we have, doesn¨t make the claim science, just because you think it.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Straw man fallacy, how you do love to make these?



A bare claim, in rebuttal to quantifiable objective evidence for a fraction of the many successes of science? You asked for tangible evidence I provided it, and not teh bare assertions I keep getting.

Try again...and this time stop using dishonest straw men and assigning them to me.

Give objective evidence for the fact that is successes. Then I will listen to you. Not what you think/feel!

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What a pure waste of time.

All the best to all people.

Over and out.

 

[Sheldon]

It doesn't match reality. It matches a part of reality:

I never said accepted scientific models matched the entirety of reality, read it again carefully.

Stop claiming I claim that reality is an illusion.

Did I claim that? I was under the impression I'd asked a question.

 

[Sheldon]

Here is what I think: That you think that science is the best method we have, doesn¨t make the claim science, just because you think it.

Think what you want, I don't object to people offering opinions, I just disbelieve them if sufficient objective evidence can't be demonstrated to support those opinions or beliefs.

If you want to disbelieve that science is demonstrably the best method we have for understanding reality that's your choice.

Can I ask you to cite a method you think is more successful?