Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[Tiberius]

No, God knew what you would choose and if you were going to choose a red shirt God would have known that, but if you were going to choose a blue shirt or a green shirt God would have known that is what you would choose.

If God knew I would wear a red shirt, then that is the only possible outcome.

If there's only one possible outcome, then it's not a choice.

You were not bound to wear the red shirt until you chose to wear a red shirt and put on the red shirt. At the last minute you could have changed your mind and decided to wear another color shirt and God would have known from the very beginning of time that you would change your mind and what color shirt you would choose because God is all-knowing.

Likewise, God knows if you will remain an atheist or become a believer. You can change your mind and become a believer at at time, and God will have known that you were going to change your mind and become a believer.

So me changing my mind retroactively rewrites time and changes what God knows, does it?

 

[Trailblazer]

The key is you do not know what choice you will make until given the option.

Tony, after all this time I think I finally realized what the problem is. @Tiberius believes in predestination and that is why he does not believe we have any choice.

 

[Tiberius]

There was more than one possible outcome until you chose the red shirt. If you had chosen the blue shirt God would have foreseen that.

There is nothing logical about anything you said. If you believe it is logical explain why you have to pick a red shirt or a blue shirt or any other color at any moment in time instead of another color.

More specifically, how does what God knows you will pick force you to pick a certain color?
Do you understand that if you chose to pick another color God would have known you were going to pick that color instead?

Okay, let me put it simply.

Right now, God comes to you and says, "Hey, Trailblazer, tomorrow, Tibs is going to wear the red shirt."

Now tell me, is there anyway that I could choose to wear the blue shirt after God has told you that I am absolutely guaranteed to wear the red shirt?

 

[Trailblazer]

Oh boy!
Why do you keep on repeating the same old line?
Can you not read?
I have explained how this "apparent paradox" is false, yet you are ignoring that.

You DO have a choice. The only reason that the blue shirt "is not an option" is because you don't WANT to choose it.
If you had wanted to choose it, then God would 100% know it

Please, don't keep repeating this logical fallacy.

As I just told Tony, after all this time I think I finally realized what the problem is. @Tiberius believes in predestination and that is why he does not believe we have any choice. So he believes that the blue shirt is not an option because God has predestined that he will wear a red shirt! If everything is predestined there cannot be any free will to choose.

 

[Tiberius]

The Baha'i Faith requires that Baha'u'llah received communication from God in order to be true, but since that can never be proven then we have to use another method in order to believe that the Baha'i Faith is actually true, and there are other methods.

I know there are other ways to reach a belief.

But there's no objective evidence for those beliefs, and thus you can't claim that the Baha'i FAITH is based on objective evidence.

Note that I am referring to ONLY the religious belief here. It does not include the facts that Mr B went to certain places or wrote certain things or made certain claims, etc. I have already completely agreed that there is objective evidence for those. I am talking about the religious/supernatural beliefs such as "God exists," etc.

 

[Trailblazer]

By looking at our past, does it seem like we got enough of a spiritual nature to counteract the material nature?

That would depend upon the person and how they lived.

Yeah, that's why I have a probably calling some of the stories in the Bible metaphorical. I think they are just plain old fiction.

I agree.

 

[CG Didymus]

I think you are right and I will be the first to admit I have cognitive dissonance, but not for the reasons atheists say I have it. I have cognitive dissonance because I am conflicted over certain things. For example, I want to be a Baha'i, but I do not like being a Baha'i. I want to believe in God but I don't like believing in God. I want to continue posting on this forum but i don't really want to continue posting on this forum. I want to move from this house but I don't really want to move from this house. The list goes on.

What Is Cognitive Dissonance?
The term cognitive dissonance is used to describe the mental discomfort that results from holding two conflicting beliefs, values, or attitudes. People tend to seek consistency in their attitudes and perceptions, so this conflict causes feelings of unease or discomfort.

This inconsistency between what people believe and how they behave motivates people to engage in actions that will help minimize feelings of discomfort. People attempt to relieve this tension in different ways, such as by rejecting, explaining away, or avoiding new information.

Cognitive Dissonance and Ways to Resolve It

You can't quit posting. What would I do with myself? Get a life or something? And I'm on page 152, one more to go.

 

[Trailblazer]

But anyway, I'd expect and want much more help from a loving and just God.

I used to expect more but I finally gave up and accepted what I have. God ain't talking to me but He sent the Bab and Baha'u'llah and that is more than good enough, if I read it, and I am happy just to be free of tests for a day or two, maybe even a week, although that is overly optimistic.

 

[Tiberius]

You are completely illogical and I cannot help you if you cannot understand why everyone reaches the same conclusion about those scientific FACTS you noted above. It is because they have been proven so they are known facts! Why would people disagree on known facts?

I know everyone believes them and has the same conclusion about them, and I know why. Because they can be checked and verified.

That was NOT my point.

My point was that if the evidence for religion was real and valid, we would see that everyone reaches the same conclusion about religion!

You can't say that real and valid evidence leads to everyone coming to the same conclusion in one case but leads to people reaching lots of different conclusions in another case. THAT would be illogical.

No, it would not fail just because someone said they checked it and determined it is not true because their OPINION is just that -- an opinion.

Likewise, if someone said they checked and determined that it WAS true, then their OPINION is just that - an opinion.

And since that is what you have done - said you have checked and determined that it WAS true - you have an OPINION, and since it's a subjective opinion, it can not have been verified.

Fine, if that is what you have determined for yourself, so if you have made up your mind I hope we don't have to discuss it anymore.

I am not going to question your verification but I don't have to agree with the results. I could care even less about your opinion because I have done my due diligence for 51 years and I know that the Baha'i Faith is true.

And I know that the Baha'i faith is NOT true.

Sounds to me like we just have two opinions butting heads. And opinions are not verified.

You have not proven a darn thing, because you cannot prove that the Baha'i Faith is false, not anymore than I can prove it is true (to anyone except myself).

I have proven it false to the same degree that you have proven it true.

If you claim that you have conclusively proven that the Baha'i Faith is wrong that would be an argument from ignorance.

Likewise, if you claim that you have conclusively proven that the Baha'i Faith is TRUE, that would also be an argument from ignorance.

Argument from ignorance asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false or proposition is false because it has not yet been proven true. This represents a type of false dichotomy in that it excludes a third option, which is that there may have been an insufficient investigation, and therefore there is insufficient information to prove the proposition be either true or false. Nor does it allow the admission that the choices may in fact not be two (true or false), but may be as many as four,

1. true
2. false
3. unknown between true or false
4. being unknowable (among the first three).[1]

Argument from ignorance - Wikipedia

Yes, we all know what it is. You've said before that you wouldn't do that, and yet here you are, doing it again...

Sorry, history is not my strong suit. You'd have to ask someone like @Truthseeker9.

So someone makes a claim, and if they share your faith and say that it proves your faith is correct, then you just accept it?

I thought you said we should verify things. You don't seem to have done that here.

I believe that all revealed religions are God made.

Does that include scientology?

I cannot prove that anymore than you can prove that all religions are man made, so why make a claim you cannot prove? That would be another argument from ignorance.

True.

But Occam's razor would tell us that if we don't need a religion, then we shouldn't believe it. And if we DO need a religion, then that need would prove that it is true.

People are free to believe whatever they want to believe since we all have free will but what they believe in no way proves that what they believe is true and they won't EVER be able to prove there was an Adam and Eve and a Garden of Eden and a talking snake and that God spoke to them in the Garden. They cannot prove that anymore than I can prove my metaphorical interpretation is accurate, but of course as I said there can be more than one metaphorical interpretation and more than one can convey spiritual truth, which I believe was the whole point of the story. Imagine that, an entire religion most of whom believe that Garden story and that since A & E ate a piece of fruit they were condemned by God until Jesus showed up and died to remove the sins of those who believe in Jesus. If you want to believe that you are welcome to, but I would be an atheist before I would ever believe that.

I don't care about metaphor. I care about facts.

 

[Trailblazer]

If something is a choice, then there must be more than one possible outcome.

There always is more than one possible outcome UNTIL you make the choice and act upon it, producing the outcome.

If God knows ahead of time, then there is only one possible outcome.
Therefore it is not a choice.

ONLY if God predestined the outcome is there only one possible outcome, but there is no reason to believe that everything in life is predestined.

If we have free will many outcomes were possible until we made a choice thus determining the outcome.

 

[Tiberius]

That's true.

So the other shirt is not available. No other shirt is available.

So tell me, do I have a choice if there is only one option available?

 

[Tiberius]

The choices were available at the time you made the choice.

If you wear the red shirt tomorrow, then God knew that you would wear it a hundred years ago. And if God knew that it is 100% that you will wear the red shirt and 0% that I will wear the blue shirt.

That means that you will wear the red shirt, but you could have chosen to wear the blue shirt instead in which case God would have known you were going to wear the blue shirt.

I am sorry you cannot overcome your linear thinking and realize that whatever you choose to do at any moment in time is what God will have known you would choose to do at any moment in time. Obviously you are narrowly focused in the idea that if God knew you were going to wear a red shirt you have to wear a red shirt and you cannot even think beyond that.

Once again I will point out that this means that my choices can apparently retroactively rewrite history.

 

[Trailblazer]

If God knew I would wear a red shirt, then that is the only possible outcome.

Correction: If God predestined that you would wear a red shirt, then that is the only possible outcome.

If there's only one possible outcome, then it's not a choice.

There is not only one possible outcome because you have free will to choose the outcome.

So me changing my mind retroactively rewrites time and changes what God knows, does it?

No, it does not change what God knows. God has always known the outcome that will be determined by what you choose to do.

 

[CG Didymus]

I used to expect more but I finally gave up and accepted what I have. God ain't talking to me but He sent the Bab and Baha'u'llah and that is more than good enough, if I read it, and I am happy just to be free of tests for a day or two, maybe even a week, although that is overly optimistic.

Okay, I made it. It wasn't so bad. I could skim over most of the "red shirt, blue shirt" posts. That's not going to be resolved anytime soon.

But anyway... similar to tests are like little things... Things like a rock or tree root that makes us stumble or stub our toe just when we were enjoying a hike out in the fresh air. See you tomorrow.

 

[Trailblazer]

Okay, let me put it simply.

Right now, God comes to you and says, "Hey, Trailblazer, tomorrow, Tibs is going to wear the red shirt."

Now tell me, is there anyway that I could choose to wear the blue shirt after God has told you that I am absolutely guaranteed to wear the red shirt?

The only reason you wear the red shirt is because you chose to wear the red shirt, NOT because God knew you would wear the red shirt.

God knew you would wear the red shirt because God knew you would choose to wear the red shirt.

 

[Tiberius]

That is exactly what I have been saying!

And if I can't do anything different, then it's not a choice, is it?

No, I do not fail to see that, I know that. The all-knowing God knows everything ahead of time (before it transpires in this world).

Anmd since everytihng must happen in the way God knows it will happen, then we can not choose to do it any differently, can we?

Okay, after all this time I think I finally see the problem. Apparently you think that what God knows is what determines everything that will happen because you believe in predetermination.

No, totally wrong. I have already told you several times that it doesn't matter if God is what determines what will happen or not. If I watch Jurassic Park, I know the lawyer is going to run for the toilet. My knowledge of it is not what made him run, is it?

Also, I most certainly do NOT believe in predeterminism. I am using a hypothetical situation. IF God exists and IF God knows the future, then we have no free will.

If everything was predetermined by God (fated, predestined) then it would be true that what you will wear was set in stone before you were even born. However, there is no reason to believe that everything has been predetermined because if that was actually true it would mean you cannot make ANY choices, in which case you would be no more than a puppet on a string, God's programmed robot.

The fact that God knows what we will do is enough to remove any choice we have, even if he was not the one who determined it.

 

[Tiberius]

Tony, after all this time I think I finally realized what the problem is. @Tiberius believes in predestination and that is why he does not believe we have any choice.

I do not believe in predestination.

I have been saying that if God knows what we will do, then it is predestination, even if God wasn't the one who did the predestinating.

 

[Tiberius]

There always is more than one possible outcome UNTIL you make the choice and act upon it, producing the outcome.

No.

If God knows today that I will wear the red shirt, then wearing the red shirt is the one possible outcome there is.

ONLY if God predestined the outcome is there only one possible outcome, but there is no reason to believe that everything in life is predestined.

He doesn't need to have predestined it, he just needs to know. His knowledge of what I will do is enough to rob me of any choice, because God's knowledge can't be wrong.

If we have free will many outcomes were possible until we made a choice thus determining the outcome.

How can there be many possible outcomes if God knows what the one outcome will be?

 

[Trailblazer]

I know there are other ways to reach a belief.

But there's no objective evidence for those beliefs, and thus you can't claim that the Baha'i FAITH is based on objective evidence.

There is objective evidence for Baha'u'llah and as far as what that adds up to, we have to do the math ourselves...
I do claim that the Baha'i Faith is based upon facts as stated it here to Adrian, another Baha'i, about six months ago.

On Adrian's thread How important are facts within your religious beliefs? I explained why I chose the Baha'i Faith.

adrian009 said:
Does historical fact matter or should religious myth be accorded the same status as fact? We’re discussing religion after all. How important are facts to you within your religious belief or worldview? Does it really matter? Why or why not?

Facts are more important to me than anything else, and that is why I became a Baha'i in the first place. The first thing I did when I heard of Baha'u'llah back in 1970 was look in the Encyclopedia Britannica to find out of Baha'u'llah was a real person. After that I read whatever books had been published about the Baha’i Faith at that time and I read the Writings of Baha’u’llah and Abdu’l-Baha, but what really convinced me that the Baha'i Faith was true was Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era because there were a lot of facts in there.

Emotions can be very misleading so I rely upon facts. As I always tell people, I never had any mushy-gushy feelings towards God or Baha'u'llah; I just know that the Baha'i Faith is the truth from God for this age because of the facts surrounding the life and mission of Baha'u'llah and because the theology is logical. #2 Trailblazer

Note that I am referring to ONLY the religious belief here. It does not include the facts that Mr B went to certain places or wrote certain things or made certain claims, etc. I have already completely agreed that there is objective evidence for those. I am talking about the religious/supernatural beliefs such as "God exists," etc.

I am sorry, but no religion has any objective evidence for religious/supernatural beliefs such as "God exists. If we did we would win the Nobel prize for religion!

You want what there can never be. the ONLY way there could ever be objective evidence for God is if God showed up on earth, but Baha'u'llah explained what would happen in that case and it ain't pretty.

“Were the Eternal Essence to manifest all that is latent within Him, were He to shine in the plentitude of His glory, none would be found to question His power or repudiate His truth. Nay, all created things would be so dazzled and thunderstruck by the evidences of His light as to be reduced to utter nothingness.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 71-72

 

[Tiberius]

Correction: If God predestined that you would wear a red shirt, then that is the only possible outcome.

No, God's knowledge is enough to do it.

There is not only one possible outcome because you have free will to choose the outcome.

If God knows what the outcome is, then the outcome he knows is the only possible outcome.

No, it does not change what God knows. God has always known the outcome that will be determined by what you choose to do.

How does that work?

God knows today what I will wear tomorrow, but he can't know until I make my choice. The only way he can know today what my choice tomorrow will be is if the choice I make tomorrow somehow travels backwards in time, but you said this isn't the case.

What you are saying makes no sense at all, even granting things like time travel and omniscience.