Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[muhammad_isa]

What you are saying makes no sense.

Ha ha.. putting your fingers in your ears won't help you.
You need to show WHY my argument is wrong.

 

[muhammad_isa]

It literally violates the rules of logic..

I'm afraid that you are mistaken.
Rather than just repeat your assertions, you need to do your research on this fallacy.
That's if you want to learn something new, that is.

..up to you.

 

[Tiberius]

It makes sense to me an a lot of other people, including @muhammad_isa.

Argument from popularity.

What you believe is no logical at all and he explained why.

His argument was illogical.

The problem is that you do not know anything about the nature of God. You cannot understand how God can know something and we can still have free will without understanding how what God knows does not affect what we choose to do. The ONLY reason we will choose to do what God knows we will do is because God knows we will do it. We can choose a or b or c, but whatever we choose will be identical to what God knew we would choose since God always knew what we would choose.

God's knowledge was not the CAUSE of what we chose to do. We made a free will choice and acted upon our choice and thereby caused it to happen. God has always known exactly what would happen because God is all-knowing. It is as simple as that.

You know, I've already told you countless times now that I never said God's knowledge makes us choose things, and yet you keep coming up with this.

It's gone beyond the point where it can be treated as a misunderstand, and I can only conclude you are deliberately misrepresenting my position.

 

[Tiberius]

But you have made it abundantly clear that you don't like what I have presented as evidence and you don't consider it to be evidence.

Because it can't be externally verified.

You have also said you have concluded that the Baha'i Faith is false. I concluded it is true a long time ago and I am not changing my position because I know it is true. I do not believe it because I want it to be true, but because of the evidence and because it makes logical sense to me.

Apparently you completely missed that I said that to show how the same logic you used can reach the totally opposite conclusion, thus demonstrating how worthless that logic is.

 

[Tiberius]

Ha ha.. putting your fingers in your ears won't help you.
You need to show WHY my argument is wrong.

I have done. Your inability to understand basic logic is not an argument against it.

 

[Tiberius]

I'm afraid that you are mistaken.
Rather than just repeat your assertions, you need to do your research on this fallacy.
That's if you want to learn something new, that is.

..up to you.

That's rich coming from a guy who has never done anything but assert that his position is correct.

And you STILL remain utterly incapable of answering simple questions.

Pick any argument from your list in post 2342 and I will explain why it is invalid.

You can also answer my question from post 3093: If God comes to you and says, "Hey, Muhammad, tomorrow, Tibs is going to wear the red shirt," is there anyway that I could choose to wear the blue shirt?

Your failure is apparent to all.

 

[CG Didymus]

I do not believe in predestination.

I have been saying that if God knows what we will do, then it is predestination, even if God wasn't the one who did the predestinating.

Yeah, if everything that is ever going to happen until the end of the world is already known by God, how would that be different than predestination? We just think were are making "free will" choices but this all-knowing one already knows which one it's going to be, therefore it has to be that choice.

And who knows maybe the God of love and desire, Cupid, whispered in the guy's ear and told him to pick the red shirt and that caused the girl of his dreams to notice him. So the God's have ways to manipulate our choices to get us to do what they want us to make. But I know that Trailblazer would say that is stupid, illogical and dumb, because Cupid doesn't exist. But, of course, their God does... and he knows all. He could provide the evidence to get you and others to believe in him, but no... That might affect your choice.

 

[Trailblazer]

You know, I've already told you countless times now that I never said God's knowledge makes us choose things, and yet you keep coming up with this.

It's gone beyond the point where it can be treated as a misunderstand, and I can only conclude you are deliberately misrepresenting my position.

When you say you MUST choose what God knows you will choose, and that you have no free will to choose anything different, you are saying that God's knowledge is causing you to choose what you choose.

 

[CG Didymus]

I am sorry, but no religion has any objective evidence for religious/supernatural beliefs such as "God exists.

But they pretend they do. Like, again, the story of Elijah and the prophets of Baal. Elijah challenged them... that if their God was real, have him send fire from heaven and cook up the animal they prepared as a sacrifice to their God. Nothing happened all day. Elijah then called to the real God and immediately his animal was fried. Then later, Elijah is taken up into the sky by a fiery chariot.

There are the type of the stories that Bible believers say really happened and are proof God is real. But other than them does anyone believe those things really happened? So "proof" of God becomes worse, because religious believers are then accused of making up stories about God trying to prove he is real... Since they can't prove that their evidence, their stories of God speaking, appearing or doing something, really happened.

 

[Trailblazer]

Because it can't be externally verified.

We already know that so what is the point of hashing it over and over again?
You have a requirement that cannot ever be met. Case closed.

Apparently you completely missed that I said that to show how the same logic you used can reach the totally opposite conclusion, thus demonstrating how worthless that logic is.

You are right, it can lead to the opposite conclusion, but that does not mean that the conclusion I came to is false.

It is worthless to try to use logic the way you are using it because it does not get us any closer to the truth.

The Baha'i Faith is either true or false, period. That is all that matters and everything else is just a smoke screen, a red herring that distracts from what is important, a way to avoid looking at the evidence and assessing it for yourself, which is all you can really do. There are no other hidden solutions to discover the truth.

 

[Tiberius]

When you say you MUST choose what God knows you will choose, and that you have no free will to choose anything different, you are saying that God's knowledge is causing you to choose what you choose.

Hey, let's not forget that you've already agreed with me that if God knows I will do one thing, I can't do anything different! Post 3072 in case you've forgotten.

 

[Trailblazer]

But they pretend they do. Like, again, the story of Elijah and the prophets of Baal. Elijah challenged them... that if their God was real, have him send fire from heaven and cook up the animal they prepared as a sacrifice to their God. Nothing happened all day. Elijah then called to the real God and immediately his animal was fried. Then later, Elijah is taken up into the sky by a fiery chariot.

There are the type of the stories that Bible believers say really happened and are proof God is real. But other than them does anyone believe those things really happened? So "proof" of God becomes worse, because religious believers are then accused of making up stories about God trying to prove he is real... Since they can't prove that their evidence, their stories of God speaking, appearing or doing something, really happened.

The Bible is not proof that anything written about God in the Bible is true. That is circular reasoning. It might be true, but it could also be false.

 

[CG Didymus]

Answer the question please, yes or no.

Is there anyway that I could choose to wear the blue shirt after God has told you that I am absolutely guaranteed to wear the red shirt?

I will keep asking until you answer yes or no.

And that ties in exactly with prophecies. God knows something that is going to happen and tells a prophet to write it down so in the future people will know that he is real and some guy is really his messenger.

The problem is he tells the prophet, "Have people watch out for the guy in the red shirt. He will lead you to the guy who was going to choose the red shirt but put on the blue one. He will fly off on a four-faced winged creature, to the top of the mountain between the rivers of mystic knowledge. There you will find the true one."

Oh, and maybe he'll tell the prophet the year and the country as to where to find the true one... "In the time when all has come to pass in the land of make believe. He will be there shining as a light. And those that don't listen to him are blind and lost. For they know not and refuse to listen to my true one."

Then this "true" one says, "Hey, I fulfilled all the prophecies. You just got to see the meaning behind what was said. You can't take it literally. What are you stupid?"

 

[Tiberius]

We already know that so what is the point of hashing it over and over again?

To show that such verification is worthless.

You have a requirement that cannot ever be met. Case closed.

it can be met just fine by things that are actually real.

You are right, it can lead to the opposite conclusion, but that does not mean that the conclusion I came to is false.

true, but it doesn't mean that it's right either.

So such "verification" is worthless, isn't it?

It is worthless to try to use logic the way you are using it because it does not get us any closer to the truth.

That's rich. YOU are the one insisting on using a "verification" method that can't actually tell us anything.

Meanwhile, I am the one who says, "Let's use what can be independently verified by other people, things that we can check and make sure they are true."

The Baha'i Faith is either true or false, period. That is all that matters and everything else is just a smoke screen, a red herring that distracts from what is important, a way to avoid looking at the evidence and assessing it for yourself, which is all you can really do. There are no other hidden solutions to discover the truth.

Such self assessment only works for subjective opinions. It does not work for objective facts.

 

[Sheldon]

Physics , chemistry and biology ! Energy life forms are unique compared to any of those sciences .

Unique wow, you don't say.

We are evidence of a bigger picture , designed to try and work out the puzzle .

Yeah, I don't believe you, and that is yet another bare unevidenced claim.

 

[CG Didymus]

Okay, I am going to add that to my list for the counselor

1. What is the continued value of the forums to you?

CG said he needed me to keep posting.

If you want to see the rest of my list I can post it later.

You know there is some Baha'i quote about two pieces of metal banging into each other, but out of that comes some spark of truth. Well, there's been plenty of sparks, so I think we're on the right path. And what's good for me and those that post things arguing against you, but probably not all that great for you, is that you are there. None of the other Baha'is could have or would have been able to survive all of this.

So God bless you and keep you strong until you drop dead of being overloaded with posts that you needed to respond to. But, always remember, we'll think fondly you... well, maybe not all of us, but most of us.

 

[Trailblazer]

Hey, let's not forget that you've already agreed with me that if God knows I will do one thing, I can't do anything different! Post 3072 in case you've forgotten.

I do not agree with that. It was just a trick question to force me to say yes or no. Please note that other people don't put up with your trick questions.

You will do what God knows you will do because God knows what you will do, but right up until the second you do it you could have chosen to do something different in which case God would have known you were going to choose to do something different.

 

[Sheldon]

You never explained why, but no matter. I have better things to do that beat a dead horse.

Of course I did, since I made it clear that your unevidenced claim contained an obvious contradiction, but of course one must grasp that 2 choices minus 1 choice leaves just the choice you're claiming a deity knows we will choose. Sadly you seem unable or unwilling to understand that 2-1 = 1, so at least your metaphor is correct in the sense of flogging a dead horse, but because as with the rest of your apologetics, you are putting your wheezy clapped out old pony behind your cart.

 

[Trailblazer]

You know there is some Baha'i quote about two pieces of metal banging into each other, but out of that comes some spark of truth. Well, there's been plenty of sparks, so I think we're on the right path. And what's good for me and those that post things arguing against you, but probably not all that great for you, is that you are there. None of the other Baha'is could have or would have been able to survive all of this.

So God bless you and keep you strong until you drop dead of being overloaded with posts that you needed to respond to. But, always remember, we'll think fondly you... well, maybe not all of us, but most of us.

To be honest, the only reason I am sticking it out on this thread is for you. I consider the atheists on this thread to be arrogant and completely hopeless cases so you will notice that I am not responding to most of their posts anymore, and I don't even bother reading some of them at all.

 

[Sheldon]

I committed no logical fallacies at all. Just because you and some other atheists believe I committed them that is not evidence that I ever committed them.

No true Scotsman fallacy... Logic is a method of resonating that adheres to strict principles of validation it has absolutely nothing to do with subjective belief. The fact you don't know this is not a surprise, given that known logical fallacies are ubiquitous in your posts, and that is beyond dispute.