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Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

Sheldon

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Trailblazer said:
To be honest, the only reason I am sticking it out on this thread is for you. I consider the atheists on this thread to be arrogant and completely hopeless cases
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That one is called an ad hominem fallacy, and a pretty hilarious one for anyone who grasps why.
 
Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Trailblazer said:
I do not agree with that. It was just a trick question to force me to say yes or no. Please note that other people don't put up with your trick questions.

You will do what God knows you will do because God knows what you will do only because God knows what you will do, but right up until the second you do it you could have chosen to do something different in which case God would have known you were going to choose to do something different.
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It may have been a trap, but it was not a "trick question". Since you refuse to reason rationally and yet claim that you do you constantly set yourself up for such traps. As I did when I got you to admit that homeopathy is pseudoscience.
 
CG Didymus

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Trailblazer said:
I do claim that the Baha'i Faith is based upon facts as stated it here to Adrian, another Baha'i, about six months ago.
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Tiberius said:
By that logic, Star Trek is based on facts as well.
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Trailblazer said:
Does historical fact matter or should religious myth be accorded the same status as fact? We’re discussing religion after all. How important are facts to you within your religious belief or worldview? Does it really matter? Why or why not?
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All religions have "facts", even some historical facts. So if we accept the facts that Jesus or Moses or Noah were real, does that make the Bible story about them true? Or, even more important, does it make what the messenger said true? That's where even the Baha'i Faith hits a road block. We can say "yes" Baha'u'llah was a real person. But then asked if we believe he was a manifestation of God? "Well, no... maybe he is maybe he isn't. Let take a close look at this." For me, I can see some good reasons to believe it. But, I also see some reasons to doubt it. And like several of the people here have said, "There is no objective evidence." So Baha'is are a little better off than most of the other religions, but it still comes down to things that we can't prove. A person might like the idea of reincarnation. So they become a Hindu. Some might agree with the idea that Jesus is the savior and is God. So they become a Christian. Some may like the idea of progressive revelation and they become a Baha'i. But are any of those things provable?
 
Sheldon

Sheldon

Veteran Member
TransmutingSoul said: ↑
The key is you do not know what choice you will make until given the option.
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Trailblazer said:
Tony, after all this time I think I finally realized what the problem is. @Tiberius believes in predestination and that is why he does not believe we have any choice.
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No, the problem is that you and other theists think there is any choice to make, if a deity exists that knows which ONE choice we will make, before we make it.
 
Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Sheldon said:
That one is called an ad hominem fallacy, and a pretty hilarious one for anyone who grasps why.
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It was also extreme projection on her part.

I have tired to point out to her countless times that if she admits that she only has beliefs no one would give her too much grief. But it appears that she needs for her beliefs to be rational, even though that is unfortunately not the case.
 
Sheldon

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Subduction Zone said:
It was also extreme projection on her part.

I have tired to point out to her countless times that if she admits that she only has beliefs no one would give her too much grief. But it appears that she needs for her beliefs to be rational, even though that is unfortunately not the case.
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The real irony for me has always been theists claiming to know what an omniscient deity thinks and wants, without a shred of objective evidence than any deity is even possible. Then when someone says they don't believe their unevidenced superstition, they label it arrogance.

Hilarious...
 
CG Didymus

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
muhammad_isa said:
I know what you mean..
However, I find many atheists argue along the lines that "science proves you wrong" etc. when discussing religion..

My post tries to explain why they are wrong according to the scientific/philosophical "laws of logic".
Naturally, not all atheists are scientifically minded..
Let's wait and see what @Tiberius has to say about it being a modal fallacy. :)
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What would be impressive if you, a Muslim, and Trailblazer, a Baha'i, could discuss and accept each others beliefs without telling them that they are wrong.

And, if you can, why can't it be the same for you when you debate an Atheist. None of us can prove enough, say enough, or know enough to change each others minds. And I think this is more important for Baha'is to learn, since they say they do accept people in all the religions. And it's not like the "agree to disagree" BS. It's more like, "Yes, I know where you're coming from and I see your point. I just choose to believe in my religion that believes such and such." What do you think? Because, definitely the religions can't keep arguing and fighting with each other.
 
Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
It Aint Necessarily So said:
If the outcome is known in advance, no choice was made.
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No, that is not true. God is all-knowing, so God knows everything that has ever happened, what is happening now, and what will happen in the future, beginning to end, but what God knows does not cause anything to happen. That does not make any logical sense because knowing something is going to happen is not what causes it to happen. What causes it to happen is when a person makes a choice and acts on it.

“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150
It Aint Necessarily So said:
What is being described by those who claim that the past and future are all seen by a deity is a reality where no choices are made. It is completely deterministic.
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If the outcome was predetermined in advance, no choice was made

If God not only knew but God also predetermined everything that would ever happen (predestination) then it would be deterministic, but God's knowledge alone does not cause anything to happen.
 
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CG Didymus

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
joelr said:
There are things most people on Earth believe to be true. We believe the sun is a star and the basic physics of it as well as it's motion. A God would surely understand what evidence would convince everyone and would have no problem knowing and producing the evidence if it felt this was important.
In the future far less people will believe Bahai and other beliefs based on bad evidence (incorrect science, no actual prophecy, no accurate predictions, no philosophy, poetry that could be easily written by men) as if a God only wanted people who would believe based on terrible evidence?
And clearly people do just that. The evidence for Mormonism is terrible. In the 70s an Ethiopian Emperor who claimed not to be a God and was a confessed Christian died and not long after myths about him were created - his coming was prophesied in the OT, his birth was accompanied by miracles, he was a child with immense wisdom and powers, his actions were prefigured in the OT, performed miracles, was an incarnation of God, communicates with his followers after death and will one day return and live with his people in a kingdom of God. This is Haile Selassie of the Rastafari religion.

Critical thinking will hopefully win out before more "messengers" come and bring new radical versions of religions.
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The big deal about the Baha'i Faith was that supposedly applying their principles would lead to peace and harmony. Baha'u'llah was supposed to be the "great" physician that had the remedy for the world's ills. Does he? Do people mistrust those that claim to be from God so much that they neglect or ignore the guy teachings? Or, are those teachings just not that impressive?

To me, once I found out that they forbade drugs, alcohol, and sex, outside of marriage... they expected nations to disarm and only keep a small army, I had my doubts it would have universal acceptance. And, if it did get accepted, and did gain control to where it could apply it teachings and laws, how was it going to enforce them? And, most important, what would they do with the Rastafarians? Tell them, "No, no, no... You can't smoke it no more..."?
 
CG Didymus

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Trailblazer said:
evidence indicates that God is revealed through Messengers who establish religions.
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And I believe some of those "messengers" were mythical creations of ancient people.

Trailblazer said:
I am not changing my position because I know it is true.
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And is it wrong to not be sure? To wait for more and better evidence?

Trailblazer said:
God's knowledge does not set anything in stone. God's knowledge does not cause anything to happen.
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Does God know what's going to happen? It sounds like you'd say, "yes". Can what he knows is going to happen change? I think you'd say, "No" Because what he knows is going to happen is what happens. Hmmm? Might as well be in stone.

And then does God cause some things to happen? If he doesn't then he doesn't guide people? He doesn't try to influence them into making the right, spiritual choices? Or, God does intervene in people's lives and gets them to make good choices?
 
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CG Didymus

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Trailblazer said:
I told you a long time ago I am not here to debate and prove I am right, I am here for a discussion, but no discussion can be had when people already have their minds made up and they don't even want to look at another perspective.
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But you're the same way. Which is the problem talking to true believers in any religion. They "know" the truth. So can even religious believers have such an open mind that they are open to even thinking that their beliefs might, just might, be wrong? And wouldn't a Baha'is hope that people in the other religions would be like that? But no, lot's of them "know" that their religion is the truth, no matter what anyone says.
 
CG Didymus

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Tiberius said:
And I've told you many times that I am happy to consider any perspective you have to offer. I will even abandon my current views and embrace a different point of view. All I need is evidence.
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I wish I had read this before I posted to Trailblazer. "True Believers" in any religion can't really say this. They know, for sure, without a doubt, that their religion is the truth. But then all of them believe in different things.
 
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