Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[Trailblazer]

It's about whether the choice is changable or not.

If the choice is changeable, then God can't know it. Because once he knows it, it can't be changed without making God wrong.

But what God knows you will do is determined by what you choose to do, that is what you are NOT understanding. No matter what you choose to do God will know what you would choose because God knows everything and God cannot be wrong.

If God says I will wear the red shirt, and then I choose to wear the blue shirt, it means God was wrong. And if God knows I will wear the blue shirt anyway, then I never had the choice to wear the red shirt, not without making God wrong.

But God never says you will wear a red shirt or any particular color shirt, that is what you are NOT understanding. God allows you to choose what color shirt you want to wear. God knows what color shirt you will wear because God is all-knowing, but God's knowledge does not CAUSE you to pick any particular shirt.

The ONLY reason you will wear the color shirt that God knows you will wear is because God knows what color shirt you will wear.

If you had chosen to wear another color shirt God would have known you were going to wear that color shirt.

 

[CG Didymus]

The future is not set just because God knows what is going to happen in the future. The future is dependent upon what people choose to do. If the future was set by God that would be absolute predestination and people would have no free will.

God knows what the person will choose but doesn't cause it to happen. There is no connection between what God knows and the cause of things. What people choose to do causes things to happen.

Well, that's the problem. Let's see if you agree with this... God knows what is going to happen, and he knows what has happened... But, to God everything has happened. He exists now and, in the future, at the same time, because He exists outside of time. While we are living it out right now, and thinking we have several choices, God has already seen what our choice was. In reality, God didn't have to wait until we made the choice to know. He already saw it and knows it.

So, since to God, who exists outside of time, can see the beginning and the end, everything has already happened. So, if to God everything has happened, all choices have been made, the world has ended, and everything happened just like God saw it would happen, then why isn't it set? It's over and done. Even though to us, living right now, it seems like we are making choices. But, not one of our choices can be different than the ones that God has already seen us make. So, God never really has to wait to see what choice we are going to make. He's already seen it. Would you agree with this or not?

 

[Truthseeker]

Okay then, please tell me the actual event, complete with date.

Which date are you talking about? No matter:

The Franco-Prussian War or Franco-German War,[a] often referred to in France as the War of 1870, was a conflict between the Second French Empire (later the Third French Republic) and the North German Confederation led by the Kingdom of Prussia. Lasting from 19 July 1870 to 28 January 1871, the conflict was caused primarily by France's determination to restore its dominant position in continental Europe, which it had lost following Prussia's crushing victory over Austria in 1866.

Franco-Prussian War - Wikipedia

The Treaty of Versailles (French: Traité de Versailles; German: Versailler Vertrag, pronounced [vɛʁˈzaɪ̯ɐ fɛɐ̯ˈtʁaːk] ( listen)) was the most important of the peace treaties that brought World War I to an end. The Treaty ended the state of war between Germany and the Allied Powers. It was signed on 28 June 1919 in the Palace of Versailles, exactly five years after the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand, which led to the war. The other Central Powers on the German side signed separate treaties.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Versailles#cite_note-6 Although the armistice, signed on 11 November 1918, ended the actual fighting, it took six months of Allied negotiations at the Paris Peace Conference to conclude the peace treaty. The treaty was registered by the Secretariat of the League of Nations on 21 October 1919.

Treaty of Versailles - Wikipedia

Interesting. I didn't know some this. I love history!

 

[Tiberius]

How is the fact that God knows ahead of time preclude you from being the one who makes the choice?

Because if God knows for a fact and he can't possibly be wrong, I have to do what he has foreseen. If I do anything else, then that would mean God was wrong, and that is not permitted if we have a God who can see the future with 100% accuracy.

Why isn't it YOU who is making the choice?

Because there is no choice. There is only one possible outcome, and I can't avoid it. I must do what God has foreseen I will do.

Who is making the choice if not YOU?

No one is making the choice because there is no choice.

Who put on the shirt? You get up in the morning and look in your closet and decide which shirt you will wear.

No I didn't. I made no decision, even if I think I did, since my actions were locked and could not deviate from what God foresaw I would do.

You choose a red shirt and that is the color God knows you will choose because God knows everything and cannot be wrong

If I can only ever do what God has forseen me do, then there is no choice for anyone to make.

How can I possibly make this any clearer?

You can't, because it doesn't make sense.

 

[rational experiences]

A whole lot of his man subjects. By he and him. Him self human man. Men in a group claiming I agree as just humans.

First identified as a human lying moment. Space by term word use as a mother. Is a direct inference in theory space zero I don't want a real Human female mother to exist.

Hence preaching man life adult was sacrificed holy mother human holy male baby is significant.

Some kindergarten realities.

We live on O the planet. One planet only no matter what a lying theist researcher says.

Holy science says men observation only. First. As humans.

Stands on God earth.

Lives inside it's heavens.

Says without a non reactive half heavens immaculate we would not own life. Observed. Half heavens not reactive.

Then he says the other half is blue light sky. Observed.

No theory why. No research either. To see is directly advised holy blue sky.

Sense. Logic. Holiness. Teaching. Life is natural first no argument allowed.

If you try to argue I said one statement you are not allowed to. Quite plainly chosen by men in a holy group. No researching theisms allowed.

Reasoned you researcher designer proved to us how evil your thoughts were.

Reason O God is stone rock. Volcano is evil enough. But is held by holy rocks presence. Cooled rock owns one less body evil. Volcanic mass.

So if no rock stone by thesis then no volcano either. Some form far eviler in burning. As substance.

Was a God observed teaching of psyche spiritual known human as the teaching. To be taught you are human alive teaching.

No argument allowed about what you pretend God was or is as a substance. God was named the rock.

For if you dared to tell a human you are of the same substance as non rock the notion identified your criminal intent. To destroy all life on the rock body.

No man is God a true teaching.

God did not create life by thesis. A Reactive calculation. Was law taught as human group agreement.

 

[Tiberius]

But what God knows you will do is determined by what you choose to do, that is what you are NOT understanding. No matter what you choose to do God will know what you would choose because God knows everything and God cannot be wrong.

And if I can only "choose" to do what God knows I will do, then there isn't really a choice at all.

But God never says you will wear a red shirt or any particular color shirt, that is what you are NOT understanding. God allows you to choose what color shirt you want to wear. God knows what color shirt you will wear because God is all-knowing, but God's knowledge does not CAUSE you to pick any particular shirt.

I used the word "says" in the sense of "communicate information that he has," not "make a determination."

The ONLY reason you will wear the color shirt that God knows you will wear is because God knows what color shirt you will wear.

If you had chosen to wear another color shirt God would have known you were going to wear that color shirt.

But it doesn't matter. If God KNOWS it, then I can't do anything different.

1. God knows I will wear the red shirt tomorrow.
2. I then wear the red shirt.

If I could choose to wear the blue shirt, thenit would violate point 1. It would mean God was wrong.

The instant God knows what shirt I will wear tomorrow, I won't be able to do anything different. Your attempt to get around it is only to push the problem back a step, but we get back to the same problem. It's just regarding the blue shirt instead of the red one.

 

[Tiberius]

Which date are you talking about? No matter:

The Franco-Prussian War or Franco-German War,[a] often referred to in France as the War of 1870, was a conflict between the Second French Empire (later the Third French Republic) and the North German Confederation led by the Kingdom of Prussia. Lasting from 19 July 1870 to 28 January 1871, the conflict was caused primarily by France's determination to restore its dominant position in continental Europe, which it had lost following Prussia's crushing victory over Austria in 1866.

Franco-Prussian War - Wikipedia

The Treaty of Versailles (French: Traité de Versailles; German: Versailler Vertrag, pronounced [vɛʁˈzaɪ̯ɐ fɛɐ̯ˈtʁaːk] ( listen)) was the most important of the peace treaties that brought World War I to an end. The Treaty ended the state of war between Germany and the Allied Powers. It was signed on 28 June 1919 in the Palace of Versailles, exactly five years after the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand, which led to the war. The other Central Powers on the German side signed separate treaties. Although the armistice, signed on 11 November 1918, ended the actual fighting, it took six months of Allied negotiations at the Paris Peace Conference to conclude the peace treaty. The treaty was registered by the Secretariat of the League of Nations on 21 October 1919.

Treaty of Versailles - Wikipedia

Interesting. I didn't know some this. I love history!

And which one of these had the dead bodies lined up on the banks of the Rhine?

 

[Trailblazer]

Well, that's the problem. Let's see if you agree with this... God knows what is going to happen, and he knows what has happened... But, to God everything has happened. He exists now and, in the future, at the same time, because He exists outside of time. While we are living it out right now, and thinking we have several choices, God has already seen what our choice was. In reality, God didn't have to wait until we made the choice to know. He already saw it and knows it.

You are like a breath of fresh air that just blew in off the Caribbean coast to clear out all the confusion on this thread!
Unfortunately, I doubt it will help some people since their minds are set in stone, at least so far.

I agree that God knows what is going to happen, and God knows what has happened... In God's Mind everything has happened. He exists now and, in the future, at the same time, because He exists outside of time.

We are living it out right now, and we have several choices even though God has already seen what our choice was. In reality, God didn't have to wait until we made the choice to know. He already saw it and knows it. But what God knows does not matter because we still have not made those choices in this contingent world. This life is like a play and God wrote the script but God wants us to live out the script even though He knows the beginning and the end.

So, since to God, who exists outside of time, can see the beginning and the end, everything has already happened. So, if to God everything has happened, all choices have been made, the world has ended, and everything happened just like God saw it would happen, then why isn't it set? It's over and done. Even though to us, living right now, it seems like we are making choices. But, not one of our choices can be different than the ones that God has already seen us make. So, God never really has to wait to see what choice we are going to make. He's already seen it. Would you agree with this or not?

It is not set because it has not yet happened in this contingent world. The play has been written but it has not been acted out. God knows what choices we will make because that is in the script, but what God knows has no effect upon what we will choose to do. We will do what God knows we will do only because God knows we will do it but what God knows does not cause anything to happen. We cause things in our life to happen by choosing to do them and acting on our choices.

Not one of our choices can be different than the ones that God has already seen us make since God already knows the choices we will make. God never really has to wait to see what choice we are going to make. He's already seen it.

However, the way God set it up we have to make choices because that is how we learn and grow spiritually. The fact that God knows all the choices we will ever make is irrelevant because what God knows is not anything we can ever know and it does not affect us in any way.

 

[Truthseeker]

And which one of these had the dead bodies lined up on the banks of the Rhine?

Oh, I see now what you meant by metaphor. I'm so slow. Yes, the bloody bodies lying on the Rhine is metaphor. They were in all sorts of locations, presumably.

 

[Tiberius]

Oh, I see now what you meant by metaphor. I'm so slow. Yes, the bloody bodies lying on the Rhine is metaphor. They were in all sorts of locations, presumably.

I was quite clear about what I meant in post 3077.

In any case, if it's metaphorical, it fails on criteria 5 (see my signature).

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: But what God knows you will do is determined by what you choose to do, that is what you are NOT understanding. No matter what you choose to do God will know what you would choose because God knows everything and God cannot be wrong.

Tiberius said: And if I can only "choose" to do what God knows I will do, then there isn't really a choice at all.

That is not true, because you had a choice BEFORE you chose to do what God knew you would choose to do.

Trailblazer said: But God never says you will wear a red shirt or any particular color shirt, that is what you are NOT understanding. God allows you to choose what color shirt you want to wear. God knows what color shirt you will wear because God is all-knowing, but God's knowledge does not CAUSE you to pick any particular shirt.

Tiberius said: I used the word "says" in the sense of "communicate information that he has," not "make a determination."

So what if God has information, how does that information affect what you choose to do?

How does that information cause you to choose what you choose?

Trailblazer said: The ONLY reason you will wear the color shirt that God knows you will wear is because God knows what color shirt you will wear.

If you had chosen to wear another color shirt God would have known you were going to wear that color shirt.

Tiberius said: But it doesn't matter. If God KNOWS it, then I can't do anything different.

1. God knows I will wear the red shirt tomorrow.
2. I then wear the red shirt.

If I could choose to wear the blue shirt, then it would violate point 1. It would mean God was wrong.

The instant God knows what shirt I will wear tomorrow, I won't be able to do anything different. Your attempt to get around it is only to push the problem back a step, but we get back to the same problem. It's just regarding the blue shirt instead of the red one.

You will not wear the red shirt because God knows you will wear the red shirt. You will wear the red shirt because you chose to wear the red shirt. If you had chosen to wear a blue shirt God would have known that you were going to choose to wear a blue shirt.

What God knows is not what determines what color shirt you will wear or anything else you will do for that matter.

Tiberius says: “Judge! I am not guilty because I have no free will. If God KNOWS it, then I can't do anything different. God knew I was going to murder my wife so I could not do anything different. The instant God knew I would murder my wife I was not able to do anything different.”

 

[Truthseeker]

I was quite clear about what I meant in post 3077.

In any case, if it's metaphorical, it fails on criteria 5 (see my signature).

It wasn't clear to me. No need to be arrogant about it after I admitted I was slow on the uptake. Also I think your criteria five is right that prophecy, and I mean no prophecy proves any truth. It is not meant to be in my opinion.

 

[rational experiences]

And if I can only "choose" to do what God knows I will do, then there isn't really a choice at all.



I used the word "says" in the sense of "communicate information that he has," not "make a determination."



But it doesn't matter. If God KNOWS it, then I can't do anything different.

1. God knows I will wear the red shirt tomorrow.
2. I then wear the red shirt.

If I could choose to wear the blue shirt, thenit would violate point 1. It would mean God was wrong.

The instant God knows what shirt I will wear tomorrow, I won't be able to do anything different. Your attempt to get around it is only to push the problem back a step, but we get back to the same problem. It's just regarding the blue shirt instead of the red one.

Imagine you are a native. No red shirt and no blue shirt. Colour being a human choice only..

Wrong. Blue light sky only holy.

Humans are created naked.

No God in that self identification just two humans.

Then a researching liar just a naked human first tries to coerce your belief by the sophist words he uses.

Said by man's quote I speak on behalf of god.

So his brothers said no man is God. The message I got as I lived as just a Man hu man told me so. Angel messages heard as you live. Unlike my brother who thinks he is a God.

And he does. Says the substance God his man body owns. As a human god.

Science said God was direct formation in space vacuum zero only. As earth substances and gas substances.

Light is gas burning substance is not radiating metals also formed in space zero.

Reasoning. When the sun burnt out earths heavens space zero void vacuum sealed in metals. Inside O gods body. Then it rained until earth flooded.

Then mountain volcano erupted putting gases back. Was the teaching involving gas receipt by saviour asteroid. Putting gas cold back into space.

Reason stone products makes the Alchemy metal cooled by water. Cold water came from ice that was melted.

Ice never owned a metal. As the sun was first hot stone mass before it eventually iced. Metal was already inside its body.

The argument itself.

Natural history not reasoned first. Human want theory was. Correct answer given when life got sacrificed. After the FACT the correct answer.

Science was told you lied.

 

[Trailblazer]

In any case, if it's metaphorical, it fails on criteria 5 (see my signature).

Who, besides you, cares if it fails your criteria?

 

[Spirit of Light]

An atheist want physically proof of a God or deity.....well sorry to say it to theists we can't give atheists what they want since believing in God is a belief and not something science will be able to prove for an other million years or so

The best we can do is to be good human beings and respect each others according to our actions words and thoughts. No matter if there is a God or not.

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: How is the fact that God knows ahead of time preclude you from being the one who makes the choice?

Tiberius said: Because if God knows for a fact and he can't possibly be wrong, I have to do what he has foreseen. If I do anything else, then that would mean God was wrong, and that is not permitted if we have a God who can see the future with 100% accuracy.

But you are still the one who made the choice that God had foreseen.

Trailblazer said: Why isn't it YOU who is making the choice?

Tiberius said: Because there is no choice. There is only one possible outcome, and I can't avoid it. I must do what God has foreseen I will do.

But you made that choice. If you had not made a choice nothing would have happened at all.

Trailblazer said: Who is making the choice if not YOU?

Tiberius said: No one is making the choice because there is no choice.

That s patently absurd. Things do not happen if nobody makes a choice and causes them to happen.

You made the choice God knew you would make.

Trailblazer said: Who put on the shirt? You get up in the morning and look in your closet and decide which shirt you will wear.

Tiberius said: No I didn't. I made no decision, even if I think I did, since my actions were locked and could not deviate from what God foresaw I would do.

You made the decision that God foresaw but it was YOUR decision to make.

Trailblazer said: You choose a red shirt and that is the color God knows you will choose because God knows everything and cannot be wrong

Tiberius said: If I can only ever do what God has forseen me do, then there is no choice for anyone to make.

You can make any choice you want to make and that will be the choice that God has forseen.

Trailblazer said: How can I possibly make this any clearer?

Tiberius said: You can't, because it doesn't make sense.

You mean it does not make any sense to you.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Who, besides you, cares if it fails your criteria?

Anyone that reasons rationally would care.

 

[Subduction Zone]

But you are still the one who made the choice that God had foreseen.

But you made that choice. If you had not made a choice nothing would have happened at all.

That s patently absurd. Things do not happen if nobody makes a choice and causes them to happen.

You made the choice God knew you would make.

You made the decision that God foresaw but it was YOUR decision to make.

You can make any choice you want to make and that will be the choice that God has forseen.

You mean it does not make any sense to you.

Sorry, God is still at fault. He is also Omnipotent, according to your beliefs. If he did not like his choice God could have created the Earth so that he would not make that choice, but God chose to make the world the he did. Therefor anything that happens was foreordained by him. You don't get to have it bother ways.

 

[night912]

Your arguments lack imagination as if you are some computer rather than having thinking ability .

I think therefore I am not the same as a rock !

I think therefore I am different from matter !

I think therefore I am objective evidence of a possibility of a deity or intelligent design !

We are objective evidence !

Your argument lacks imagination. How are the things that you said any different from these:

I think therefore I exist just like a rock exist.

I think therefore I am just made up of matter.

I think therefore I am not objective evidence of a possibility of a deity or intelligent design !

I think therefore I can imagine.

 

[night912]

That is not true, because you had a choice BEFORE you chose to do what God knew you would choose to do.

What were these choices that you had before God created you to do the things that God wanted you to do?

So what if God has information, how does that information affect what you choose to do?

Now you're saying that God is not the creator. So you are unable to make a choice as to whether or not God is the creator.

How does that information cause you to choose what you choose?

Because that information was created by God.

You will not wear the red shirt because God knows you will wear the red shirt. You will wear the red shirt because you chose to wear the red shirt. If you had chosen to wear a blue shirt God would have known that you were going to choose to wear a blue shirt.

What God knows is not what determines what color shirt you will wear or anything else you will do for that matter.

It's not? So someone who created a robot to do a specific action when specific conditions are met, is not the one who determines what the robot is going to do. Got it.

So then what's the problem that you have with being a robot?