Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[mikkel_the_dane]

I've no idea what you mean sorry, or what it has to do with my post.

Ah, not just TB then, oh dear. IF a deity existed and knew what I would do before I do it, that would mean I had no other choices.

Incidentally didn't you say this deity could stop us if it wanted? That would make it complicit in every crime ever committed. Then again it is claimed to have created parasites and diseases that cause unimaginable suffering, so I'm just glad there isn't a shred of objective evidence for any such deity.

What is the epistemological status of the bold?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

For you no

For anyone.
How rational reasoning works, is not a matter of opinion.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..in summary, if it CAN be known what the future brings, then reality is deterministic.
And in a fully deterministic reality, "free will" can't exist. At best, the illusion thereof can exist.

See post #3319
Also, you might find the short video clip below illuminating..

Physics suggests that the future has already happened - BBC Reel

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

This is a presupposition based on intuition.
That is because our perception of time is a sense of something we call
"the present" apparently moving along an arrow of time.

However, you say my explanation "makes no sense".
You will have to show me why..

Sorry I deleted the post you are quoting because I thought it wasn't the best explanation.
I did a new post.

Bottom line:
- if the future can be known with certainty, then reality is fully deterministic
- if reality is fully deterministic, then all "choices" and decisions are just as deterministic
- therefor, "choices" aren't free

At best, the "free" part is an illusion.
If you have a choice between blue and red and the "perfect foreknowledge" is that you'll choose red, then you'll "choose" red. Blue was an option, but choosing blue was never an option.
As the "choice" of red was pre-determined.

You never were actually able to choose blue in such a universe. At best, you were under the illusion that you could have chosen blue.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Sorry but you're creating a god of the gaps polemic, using an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy. If something is unfalsifiable that doesn't mean we should make assumptions about it, it means it is meaningless and we should move on, and that is what the scientific method does, it rejects all unfalsifiable claims as unscientific.

Again, I see only one polemicist here: and do you really think the sub Harry Potter cod Latinisms carry any weight?

You keep labouring this point about falsifiability - as if your dogma requires you to hold precepts such as that one, as articles of faith. However, Karl Popper's maxim has no relevance in a discussion about metaphysics, nor does it apply in those areas where - as inevitably they sometimes do - physics and metaphysics overlap.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

See post #3319
Also, you might find the short video clip below illuminating..

Physics suggests that the future has already happened - BBC Reel

Explain how that's relevant to what I wrote.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Sorry but you're creating a god of the gaps polemic, using an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy. If something is unfalsifiable that doesn't mean we should make assumptions about it, it means it is meaningless and we should move on, and that is what the scientific method does, it rejects all unfalsifiable claims as unscientific.

Evidence for the bold please.

 

[Spirit of Light]

For anyone.
How rational reasoning works, is not a matter of opinion.

Belief in a God does not need to be rasional, it is a personal belief that there is a God existing. What others believe or disbelieve is not up to me to say.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Belief in a God does not need to be rasional, it is a personal belief that there is a God existing. What others believe or disbelieve is not up to me to say.

Yes, no human is fully rational as per this definition:
-based on facts or reason and not on emotions or feelings
Definition of RATIONAL

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Belief in a God does not need to be rasional,

I think all beliefs should be rational.
As irrational beliefs are a good way to believe falsehoods

Basically, what you are saying is that you don't care about rationality when it comes to your religious beliefs.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I think all beliefs should be rational.
As irrational beliefs are a good way to believe falsehoods

Basically, what you are saying is that you don't care about rationality when it comes to your religious beliefs.

What is rational to you?

 

[Spirit of Light]

I think all beliefs should be rational.
As irrational beliefs are a good way to believe falsehoods

Basically, what you are saying is that you don't care about rationality when it comes to your religious beliefs.

I believe in a God no matter what others say i can or can not do or believe in.

 

[RestlessSoul]

For anyone.
How rational reasoning works, is not a matter of opinion.

Reason's limitations, however are very much a matter of opinion.

So also, is the extent to which reason can define the qualities of that most elusive concept, objective reality.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

For anyone.
How rational reasoning works, is not a matter of opinion.

Please give evidence for what rational reasoning is.

 

[Sheldon]

What does that mean "you had no other choices"?

It's as simple a statement as I can make it sorry.

Of COURSE you had other choices ..

Not if my ultimate choice was known to a deity all along, that is self evident.

are you saying that blue would magically disappear and you wouldn't know that it was there, because you chose red?

I have no idea what you're talking about there, but manifestly my choice would be limited to one only if a deity knew all along that was the ultimate choice I would make, the rest is coloured bubbles.

the reason you will chose red is because God knew you wanted to. You said so yourself .. "IF a deity existed and knew what I would do"

You either didn't understand what I said, or you haven't understood what you've said, sadly I can't make it any simpler or clearer for you.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..If you have a choice between blue and red and the "perfect foreknowledge" is that you'll choose red, then you'll "choose" red. Blue was an option, but choosing blue was never an option.
As the "choice" of red was pre-determined.

The word "pre-determined" is a loaded word. It suggests that G-d had already determined it, which is not the case.
Choosing blue WAS an option, but you didn't want to choose it.
The fact that you say that the "perfect foreknowledge is that you'll choose red", means that you will choose red.
As simple as that. Nothing sinister about it, or that you have magically lost your free-will.

You never were actually able to choose blue in such a universe. At best, you were under the illusion that you could have chosen blue.

You are mistaken. It is you who suggest that G-d knows you would choose red. It could just as easily have been blue.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Not if my ultimate choice was known to a deity all along, that is self evident

Self-evident? Since WHEN was that considered any kind of proof in logical reasoning?

I have no idea what you're talking about there..

Oh well. I don't think that you are stupid, so the only conclusion that I can come to is that you don't want to change your position.
You WANT to believe that free-will and omniscience are incompatible.
Oh no. Wait a minute. You have no choice.

 

[Trailblazer]

There is no choice if a deity knows the final choice we will make, that is axiomatic, how can you not see that, is it deliberate?

There were other choices we could have made before we made the choice we made.
The deity knew the choices we had and the deity knew the final choice we would make because the deity is all-knowing.

We would make the choice the deity knew we would make ONLY because the deity knew the choice we would make, not because we did not have any other choices.
Had we made a different choice, the deity would have known that different choice was the choice we would make.

 

[Trailblazer]

Dear oh dear...If it knows what I will do before I do it, then I have no choice but to do it, how can this simple fact be so hard for anyone to grasp?

Dear oh dear...the deity knows what you will do before I do it, but the deity's knowledge has NOTHING to do with what you CHOOSE to do.

You have a choice whether or not to do it right up until you make the choice. The deity knows the choice you will make because the deity is all-knowing.

Whatever choice you make will be the choice the deity knew you would make because the deity knew the choice you would make.

The only reason things happen is because people choose to do them. God knows everything people will do but God does not cause them to do anything by knowing what they will do.

How can this simple fact be so hard for anyone to grasp?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Reason's limitations, however are very much a matter of opinion.

I have no idea what you mean by that.

So also, is the extent to which reason can define the qualities of that most elusive concept, objective reality.

So?