Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[TagliatelliMonster]

I believe in a God no matter what others say i can or can not do or believe in.

I don't think I said anything about what you can and can't believe.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why would a deity that could do literally anything waste it's time on such nonsense when it could make every man woman and child know it existed unequivocally in an instant.

It is axiomatic that an omnipotent deity only does what He wants to do so we can conclude that the deity doesn't want do that.

Simply put, because the deity does not want to make every man woman and child know it existed unequivocally in an instant. If the deity wanted to make everyone into a believer everyone would be a believer, since an omnipotent deity can make everyone into a believer. This is logic 101 stuff. It is also what Baha'u'llah wrote.

“He Who is the Day Spring of Truth is, no doubt, fully capable of rescuing from such remoteness wayward souls and of causing them to draw nigh unto His court and attain His Presence. “If God had pleased He had surely made all men one people.” His purpose, however, is to enable the pure in spirit and the detached in heart to ascend, by virtue of their own innate powers, unto the shores of the Most Great Ocean, that thereby they who seek the Beauty of the All-Glorious may be distinguished and separated from the wayward and perverse. Thus hath it been ordained by the all-glorious and resplendent Pen…”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 71

In the context of the passage above, If God had pleased He had surely made all men one people means that God could have made all people believers, but IF God has pleased, implies that God did not want to make all people into believers, verified by the fact that all men are not believers. The passage goes on to say why God didn’t want to make us believers... In short, God wants us to make an effort and become believers by our own efforts (by virtue of their own innate powers).

According to this passage, God wants everyone to search for Him and determine if He exists by using their own innate intelligence and using their free will to make the decision to believe. God wants those who are sincere and truly search for Him to believe in Him. God wants to distinguish those people from the others who are not sincere, those who are unwilling to put forth any effort.

If God proved to everyone that He exists then it would not be possible to distinguish between people and how much they really care about believing in Him. In short, God wants everyone to prove their worthiness.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I don't think I said anything about what you can and can't believe.

So is his beliefs rational?

 

[Spirit of Light]

I don't think I said anything about what you can and can't believe.

No you did not, as a believer in a God it honestly does not matter to me what a few of the non-believer say, because they don't understand the reason for believing in a God.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

No you did not, as a believer in a God it honestly does not matter to me what a non-believer say, because they don't understand the reason for believing in a God.

I understand you in some sense and I am a non-believer sort of.

 

[Trailblazer]

Not quite.

If it's non specific, all you need to do is wait until some event happens that you can interpret the prophecy as referring to.

That's true, and that is precisely WHY we can never look at one prophecy to try to prove why was the return of Christ/Messiah. We have to look at all the Bible prophecies in their entirety and William Sears did just that in his book.

William Sears, Thief in the Night

 

[Spirit of Light]

I understand you in some sense and I am a non-believer sort of.

I Should have said "a few non-believers"

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

The word "pre-determined" is a loaded word.

No, it isn't. It's what necessarily is the case as a direct result of accepting the premise that perfect / infallible foreknowledge can exist.

Either the future is set in stone and choice thus are pre-determined, or choices aren't pre-determined and the future isn't set in stone. Seems rather straightforward to me.

It suggests that G-d had already determined it, which is not the case.

I didn't say anything about what predetermined anything.
This is a strawman.

Choosing blue WAS an option, but you didn't want to choose it.

If there is perfect foreknowledge that I WILL be choosing red, then how could I ever choose blue?
Choosing blue would contradict perfect foreknowledge.

Either it's known with certainty beforehand what I'll do or it isn't.
If it is, then it means that I never had a free choice. At best I had the illusion thereof.

The fact that you say that the "perfect foreknowledge is that you'll choose red", means that you will choose red.

Indeed. And not blue. I could never choose blue IF there is such a thing as perfect foreknowledge being that I'll be choosing red.

Choosing blue would negate the perfect part.
It's one or the other. Can't have it both ways.

As simple as that. Nothing sinister about it, or that you have magically lost your free-will.

If it's predetermined that I'll choose red (which would be required for perfect foreknowledge of that to exist), then I was never free to choose anything else. At best, I'ld have the illusion of having made a free choice.
But it was never free. It can't be, if it was already known beforehand that the outcome would be red no matter what.

You are mistaken. It is you who suggest that G-d knows you would choose red. It could just as easily have been blue.

Huh?

Another strawman.
I'm arguing against the idea that you can have "free will" AND perfect foreknowledge in the same universe.
These things can not coexist.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I Should have said "a few non-believers"

Yeah, sometimes use at least one, a few, some and so on.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Yeah, sometimes use at least one, a few, some and so on.

I changed the first comment to say a few

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I changed the first comment to say a few

Here is a short version. We can go deeper if you like.
Most people would agree that for example gravity applies to all humans. We all share the effect of gravity. But we don't share the meaning of life. That one is where the fun starts.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Oh well. I don't think that you are stupid, so the only conclusion that I can come to is that you don't want to change your position.

Sounds like projection.

You WANT to believe that free-will and omniscience are incompatible.

Again sounds like projection.

We have explained at length why they are incompatible.
Your "rebuttal" here amounts to nothing more then "no it isn't.

Once more: if perfect foreknowledge is possible and if that perfect foreknowledge says that you will take the red pill, then you were never free to take the blue pill. At best, you were under the illusion that you freely chose to take the red one. But the blue one was never an actual option, since the foreknowledge said that it was going to be red.

If you COULD have chosen blue, then the foreknowledge wouldn't have been perfect. Then it could have been wrong.

Certainty in foreknowledge and indeterministic decision making, are thus incompatible.
Either the future is uncertain and free will exists
or
The future is set and stone and free will at best exists as an illusion.

It's one or the other. Not both.

Oh no. Wait a minute. You have no choice.

Only in a universe where perfect foreknowledge can exist.
But we don't seem to live in such a universe.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

There were other choices we could have made before we made the choice we made.
The deity knew the choices we had and the deity knew the final choice we would make because the deity is all-knowing.

Then your choice isn't free, but deterministic instead.

We would make the choice the deity knew we would make ONLY because the deity knew the choice we would make, not because we did not have any other choices.

That makes no sense.

Had we made a different choice, the deity would have known that different choice was the choice we would make.

Free choice means that you can change your mind at any time.

We can calculate the exact path of a spacerock precisely because gravity is deterministic.
If said spacerock could "freely chose" to change its trajectory, we would not be able to calculate its exact path.

It's that simple.

 

[CG Didymus]

Incidentally didn't you say this deity could stop us if it wanted? That would make it complicit in every crime ever committed. Then again it is claimed to have created parasites and diseases that cause unimaginable suffering, so I'm just glad there isn't a shred of objective evidence for any such deity.

.the deity knows what you will do before I do it, but the deity's knowledge has NOTHING to do with what you CHOOSE to do.

Can and does God stop some people from making the wrong choice?

Now about the evil things people do... Obviously, God doesn't stop some people from making horrible choices in killing and harming others. Why does God allow it? He doesn't want to interfere with anyone's free will? It is all part of his overall plan and though it's bad, in the end, it will be for the overall good? Or, something else?

Parasites and diseases... God created them knowing they'd cause suffering and diseases. Is that what God wanted? If not, what is the Baha'i explanation of why God created them?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Dear oh dear...the deity knows what you will do before I do it, but the deity's knowledge has NOTHING to do with what you CHOOSE to do.

Nobody said he does.
The point is that the chose would have to be predetermined IF it could be known beforehand in infallible ways.
How that predetermination works exactly and who/what is responsible for it, is irrelevant.

You have a choice whether or not to do it right up until you make the choice.

If it is known beforehand what choice you'll make in infallible ways, then that "choice" is an illusion.

The deity knows the choice you will make because the deity is all-knowing.

About the future. Meaning that the future is set in stone and known before it occurs.
That is only possible if reality is fully deterministic.

The only reason things happen is because people choose to do them. God knows everything people will do but God does not cause them to do anything by knowing what they will do.

Nobody is saying this god causes people to do things.
We are saying that the choices aren't actually choices, if the outcome is known beforehand.
It has to be deterministic for it to be possible to be known beforehand. Deterministic by whatever means.
One doesn't need to be the cause of the determination to know about it.

We can calculate the exact path of a space rock because gravity is deterministic.
So we know before hand where the space rock will be at what time.
But that doesn't mean that we cause it to be there at that time.
It just means that we understand the deterministic force that causes it to be there at that time and can use that knowledge to know the future of said space rock.

How can this simple fact be so hard for anyone to grasp?

Right back at ya.

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: It does end up that way because what the deity knows what you will do = what you will do since the deity cannot be wrong.

Tiberius said: And if the deity can't be wrong, then I have no choice but to do what he has foreseen that I will do.

That is correct, but how do you know what the deity has foreseen? You do not know, only the deity knows.

Trailblazer said: We WILL end up doing only do what the deity knows we will do because what we will do = what the deity knew we would do,
but BEFORE we made a choice we could have made another choice and that choice would have been = to what the deity knew we would do.

Tiberius said: Except that doesn't work.

Let's say I'm going to do something on Friday.

On Monday, God already knows what I will do.

But if I don't decide to do it until Wednesday, then that means that on Tuesday I could still have made another choice.

But that violates the idea that God knew on Monday.

But that doesn’t work. God does not exist in time so God is not constrained by time. God did not know something on Monday. God knows everything all the time (I mean time as we humans refer to time, since God is not constrained by time.)

Let's say I'm going to do something on Friday.

God already knows what I will do and when I am going to do it because God is all-knowing.

If I don't decide to do it until Wednesday, then that means that on Tuesday I could still have made another choice.

From the day I was born God knew the choice I was going to make and on which day I would make that choice because God is all-knowing.

 

[RestlessSoul]

I have no idea what you mean by that.


So?

So reason is neither infallible, nor infinite in faculty.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Either the future is set in stone and choice thus are pre-determined, or choices aren't pre-determined and the future isn't set in stone. Seems rather straightforward to me..

OK .. but many people see predetermined meaning that G-d has set the future, which is not the case.

If there is perfect foreknowledge that I WILL be choosing red, then how could I ever choose blue?
Choosing blue would contradict perfect foreknowledge.

That is right. It's not that you can't choose blue.
You have already said that you will choose red. Duh !

Either it's known with certainty beforehand what I'll do or it isn't.
If it is, then it means that I never had a free choice...

It doesn't mean that at all.
If you say that you will choose red, then how has that got anything to do with free-will?

 

[Trailblazer]

If god, or anyone else, can know with certainty what the future is then free choice is necessarily an illusion, as that would make reality completely deterministic.

It would mean that it was already determined even before I were born that one day I would be born and that on this day I would be writing this post.

God's foreknowledge does not cause anything to happen. Iows, just because God knows what is going to happen that does not mean God causes it to happen.

“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150

However, if God predestined something to happen then that would be predetermination and that would mean it will happen because it was predestined by God. That is called fate. It was already fated/predestined even before you were born where you were going to be born and to what parents. That was your fate because it was not something you could have chosen. That you will be writing this post was a choice because you could instead have decided to go to a movie. God knew that you would choose to be writing the post because God is all-knowing but God did not cause you to write the post, you chose to write the post.

 

[Trailblazer]

Then your choice isn't free, but deterministic instead.

No, because what God knows does not determine what happens. See the post above:

#3359 Trailblazer

That makes no sense.
Free choice means that you can change your mind at any time.

And you can change your mind at any time becaue you have free will.

We can calculate the exact path of a spacerock precisely because gravity is deterministic.
If said spacerock could "freely chose" to change its trajectory, we would not be able to calculate its exact path.

It's that simple.

I never claimed that a spacerock could freely choose to change its trajectory.