Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[Sheldon]

If you had chosen A, that would have been what the deity always knew you would choose.
If you had chosen B, that would have been what the deity always knew you would choose.
If you had chosen C, that would have been what the deity always knew you would choose.
If you had chosen D, that would have been what the deity always knew you would choose.

Ultimately I can only choose 1 of those, and you have repeatedly claimed a deity always knew which 1, so no another choice would not be possible, it is a logical contradiction.

 

[Sheldon]

That's right, and atheists just hate that since they don't like to admit God is right and they are wrong.

Since no theist can demonstrate any objective evidence that any deity is even possible, the assertion a deity is always right, is nothing more than a begging the question fallacy, so much for being rational.

 

[muhammad_isa]

So Einstein missed this then?

Missed what exactly? You are making no sense.
Have you watched the cartoon or not?
It isn't that long, and it's well explained, imo.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Ultimately i can only choose 1 of those, and you have repeatedly claimed a deity always knew which 1, so no another choice would not be possible, is is a logical contradiction.

It isn't a logical contradiction at all.
You saying you have no choice is nonsense.

A fixed future does not mean that you have no choice.
It simply means that you will MAKE that choice.
There is no magic stuff going on here.
You are making a logical fallacy.
It is NECESSARILY TRUE that you will make the choice that G-d knows by definition.
That does not limit what you want to choose in any way.

 

[Sheldon]

Missed what exactly? You are making no sense.

That his work and the claim an omniscient deity exists, and knows what we will do before we do it, "are precisely the same thing" as you just claimed.

 

[Sheldon]

It isn't a logical contradiction at all.
You saying you have no choice is nonsense.

It is a logical contradiction, and I'm not saying we have no choice, you and TB are saying that, by claiming we can only make the one choice that you claim a deity knows beforehand we will make.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

That his work and the claim an omniscient deity exists, and knows what we will do before we do it, "are precisely the same thing" as you just claimed.

I am not sure that I understand this one. If God knows all time, it doesn't follow that the future is determined from the point of view of a human.
P1: God know all time.
C: Therefore the future is determined.
As far as I can tell, that is not valid.

 

[KWED]

Why is it not possible?
It is not possible because it is an initial assumption.
Why is it impossible to choose other than A?
..because of the initial assumption that God can't be wrong.

Exactly! It is god's infallible omniscience that fixes the choices we are able to make.
Phew, that took some doing, but we finally got there.

..and not because you are not free to choose.

We are free to chose, but what we choose is inevitable as it must be the choice foreseen by god, so that freedom is merely an illusion.

That's purely a play on words. It is not that you weren't free to choose, it is necessarily true that you will choose A because of your initial assumptions.
i.e. you will choose A because G-d can't be wrong

Correct. The outcome is inevitable because of god's infallible omniscience.

Clearly, it is inevitable that you must choose something

And that something can only be the one option that god has foreseen.

 

[muhammad_isa]

That his work and the claim an omniscient deity exists, and knows what we will do before we do it, "are precisely the same thing" as you just claimed.

No. Yet again you are misrepresenting what I said.
An omniscient deity implies a fixed future.

Einstein's theory of relativity ALSO implies a fixed future.
That is what I meant by precisely the same thing

 

[Sheldon]

There's another point of view we can examine?

 

[Sheldon]

We are free to chose, but what we choose is inevitable as it must be the choice foreseen by god, so that freedom is merely an illusion.

Exactly so....

 

[muhammad_isa]

you and TB are saying that, by claiming we can only make the one choice..

Huh?
How many choices do you want to make?
It is obvious that when you make a choice, it MUST be something.
You can make whatever choice you wish.

Saying "no, you have to make the choice what God knows" is not strictly correct. You WILL make that choice.
"You have to" implies that are you are forced to .. which you are not.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Exactly! It is god's infallible omniscience that fixes the choices we are able to make..

Urrr .. no
It is WE that fix the choice by choosing it. We are able to make any choice we like.

We are free to chose, but what we choose is inevitable as it must be the choice foreseen by god, so that freedom is merely an illusion..

Urrr .. no
It is inevitable that we choose SOMEthing. You can choose what you like.
You say it "must be the choice foreseen by G-d".
Of course it must. He knows what you will freely choose
Nothing sinister about it.
What G-d knows does not limit the choice you want to make.

 

[Sheldon]

No. Yet again you are misrepresenting what I said.
An omniscient deity implies a fixed future.

Einstein's theory of relativity ALSO implies a fixed future.
That is what I meant by precisely the same thing

Not the same thing, as one claims an omniscient deity, and the other does not. Thus the one is not evidence for the other.

 

[Sheldon]

Sheldon
you and TB are saying that, by claiming we can only make the one choice..

Huh?
How many choices do you want to make?

You have misrepresented what I said.

If, as you and TB claim a deity knows the one choice we will make, before we make, then the other choices are an illusion. Since as you claimed, we can only choose the one choice that a deity knows we will choose.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

You have misrepresented what I said.

If, as you and TB claim a deity knows the one choice we will make, before we make, then the other choices are an illusion. Since as you claimed, we can only choose the one choice that a deity knows we will choose.

Knowing all time doesn't mean that the world is predetermined.

 

[Sheldon]

Knowing all time doesn't mean that the world is predetermined.

We've moved on from that generic claim.

If I appear to have two choices, lets say choice A and choice B, and a deity knew for all time that I would ultimately choose B, and I could not choose other than that deity knows I will choose, then A would appear to be an illusion, no?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

We've moved on from that generic claim.

If I appear to have two choices, lets say choice A and choice B, and a deity knew for all time that I would ultimately choose B, and I could not choose other than that deity knows I will choose, then A would appear to be an illusion, no?

Yes, if you use these assumptions, then yes.

 

[Sheldon]

Yes, if you use these assumptions, then yes.

We appear to agree, FYI they are claims that have been variously made in this thread, not assumptions that I am making.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

We appear to agree, FYI they are claims that have been variously made in this thread, not assumptions that I am making.

Well, I don't believe that we determine anything about a given god by thinking. But that is just me.