Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[KWED]

That's true, and the Baha'i Faith has the most objective evidence of any religion, hands down.

And yet when we ask for this "evidence", we are only given vague hand waving.
There is as much evidence that Baha'ism is true as there is for Islam or Christianity or any other religion. ie. None.

 

[Lain]

That's true, and the Baha'i Faith has the most objective evidence of any religion, hands down.

I've never looked into Bahais. Got a book of this evidence and specifically it's superiority to historic Christianity? I'd like to read it.

 

[KWED]

Almighty God has given us free-will to choose what path we will tread.

How does our free will affect being drowned by a tsunami or bitten by a snake or developing cancer as a child?

I often hear people swearing f***ing this and that etc.
Those that don't remember G-d and righteousness are more likely to tend towards evil, whether knowingly or unknowingly.

If people should thank god for the good that happens in their lives, should they also curse him for the bad?

The bottom line is that G-d ALLOWS evil. He doesn't promote it.

An utterly fatuous argument.
What would you think of a parent who allows their baby to drink bleach, even though they didn't promote it?
What is the point of a policeman who allows crime to happen? Do you excuse them because they didn't actively promote it? No, they are sacked or prosecuted.
A teacher who allows their pupils to play truant is an incompetent teacher, despite not promoting truancy.

Mankind has been given sovereignty over the earth.

So why does god keep interfering with droughts, floods, earthquakes, etc, etc?

G-d intervenes when He wills.

Why? I thought you said it's all down to us. Now you are saying that he makes stuff happen beyond our control. (Well, as a Muslim you must subscribe to the principle or Qadr, so you accept that the outcome of all events is determined by Allah's decree. You just seem to ignore it when it suits you.)

 

[KWED]

I've never looked into Bahais. Got a book of this evidence and specifically it's superiority to historic Christianity? I'd like to read it.

"When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” —Stephen F Roberts

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: You have no choice but to do what the deity has foreseen but you do not know what the deity has foreseen.

KWED said: Which is why it feels like you have free will to make any choice.

No, that is not the reason. The reason we ‘feel’ we have free will to make any choice is because God created humans will free will so we can make choices.

Trailblazer said: You can choose to do anything you want to do on any day
and whatever you choose it will be what God always knew you would choose.

KWED said: Which one it it? It isn't be both.

Why can’t it be BOTH? Please explain logically why it cannot be both.

Trailblazer said: God’ s knowledge puts no constraints on what you can choose, none at all.

KWED said: Except by fixing what you will choose before you have made the choice, thus making the outcome inevitable.

Please explain how what God knows fixes what we will choose beforehand.
In other words, how does the fact that God knows what we will choose determine what we will choose?

Trailblazer said: Simply put, the outcome is known by God because God is all-knowing but the outcome is determined by what humans choose to do.
KWED said: But that "choice" is determined by what god already knows it will be.

No, the choice is determined by us. God’s knowledge does not have any bearing upon what we will choose to do.

We will choose what God knows we will choose because God knows what we will choose, but what we will choose is determined by us, not by God. God knows what we will choose beforehand because God is all-knowing. It is as simple as that.

Trailblazer said: God gave humans free will to use.

KWED said: Under divine predestination and infallible omniscience, free will cannot exist. Simply asserting we have it does not make it any more possible.

You are conflating divine predestination and infallible omniscience and they are not the same. God’s infallible omniscience means that God knows everything that has ever happened, what is happening now, and everything that will ever happen.

Divine predestination would mean that humans have no free will. Free will could not exist if everything was predestined (predetermined) by God but there is no reason to believe that is the case. If that was true then humans would be no more than God’s puppets on a string, God’s programmed robots. Moreover, if free will did not exist humans could never be held accountable for their actions in courts of law.

Some things are predestined by God but other things are left to the free will of man and thus they are not predetermined.

“Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them according to his own will.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 248

Man is forced to endure them because God set it up that way since we live in a material world where some of the bad things happen are beyond our control.

But feel free to explain how, at Time T, you can choose B, C, or D when god already knows you will choose A, and he cannot be wrong.

I never claimed that at Time T you could choose B, C, or D when God already knows you will choose A. You will choose A if God already knows you will choose A, but you will not choose A because God knew you would choose A. You will choose A because you wanted to choose A. If you had wanted to choose B, C, or D, you would have chosen B, C, or D and God would have known which one of those you were going to choose.

If God had predestined that you would choose A you would have no choice but to choose A, but the fact that God knew you would choose A does not cause you to choose A.

“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150

Question.—If God has knowledge of an action which will be performed by someone, and it has been written on the Tablet of Fate, is it possible to resist it?

Answer.—The foreknowledge of a thing is not the cause of its realization; for the essential knowledge of God surrounds, in the same way, the realities of things, before as well as after their existence, and it does not become the cause of their existence. It is a perfection of God.
Some Answered Questions, p. 138

 

[Sheldon]

You have limited yourself to two dimensions of being and perception.

I have absolutely no idea what you mean sorry.

If you acknowledge only the existence of mind and body, but deny the spirit, you are inevitably unbalanced

My mind and body exist as objective facts, what objective evidence can you demonstrate for what you call "spirit". I have no idea what you mean by limited, and now you have added unbalanced, and that means nothing to me either.

You also limit your ability to communicate, through constant repetition of well rehearsed rhetoric and jargon.

Hahahhahahhaah, please tell me that was meant as irony? If so kudos, if not well never mind it put a big smile on my face after all your woo woo in that post.

 

[Sheldon]

..so you reject the theory of the space-time continuum?
If you believe that the intuitive growing block theory is correct, then you effectively denounce Minowski space.

Minkowski space - Wikipedia

This in turn means that the laws of physics must be evolving and not fixed

Could you just cite the research that evidences an omniscient deity, that knows everything we will do before we do it, it would save a lot of time.

 

[Lain]

"When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” —Stephen F Roberts

Doesn't apply to me. Pithy quote though.

 

[Trailblazer]

Is that why not one of its adherents have managed to demonstrate a single shred of objective evidence on here despite being asked repeatedly? You have stated yourself unequivocally that you have none at all?

I never said that there is no objective evidence for the Baha'i Faith, I said there is such evidence.

adrian009 said: Does historical fact matter or should religious myth be accorded the same status as fact? We’re discussing religion after all. How important are facts to you within your religious belief or worldview? Does it really matter? Why or why not?

Trailblazer said: Facts are more important to me than anything else, and that is why I became a Baha'i in the first place. The first thing I did when I heard of Baha'u'llah back in 1970 was look in the Encyclopedia Britannica to find out of Baha'u'llah was a real person. After that I read whatever books had been published about the Baha'i Faith at that time and I read the Writings of Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha, but what really convinced me that the Baha'i Faith was true was Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era because there were a lot of facts in there.

Emotions can be very misleading so I rely upon facts. As I always tell people, I never had any mushy-gushy feelings towards God or Baha'u'llah; I just know that the Baha'i Faith is the truth from God for this age because of the facts surrounding the life and mission of Baha'u'llah and because the theology is logical.

How important are facts within your religious beliefs?

I only ever said that there is no objective evidence that God spoke to Baha'u'llah since such a claim can have no objective evidence.

 

[Trailblazer]

And yet when we ask for this "evidence", we are only given vague hand waving.

No, you do not get any hand waving, you get the link to the post below.

Some time ago when asked for evidence I posted the claims of Baha’u’llah and the evidence that supports the claims of Baha’u’llah on this thread:

Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah

There is as much evidence that Baha'ism is true as there is for Islam for Christianity or any other religion. ie. None.

No, there is much more verifiable evidence for the Baha'i Faith than there is for for any other religion and because we have more evidence that makes it a lot easier to determine if it is true or not, based upon the historical facts surrounding the Revelation of Baha'u'llah.

 

[Trailblazer]

I've never looked into Bahais. Got a book of this evidence and specifically it's superiority to historic Christianity? I'd like to read it.

I do not claim that the Baha'i Faith is superior to historic Christianity, only that the evidence for the Baha'i Faith is more verifiable since it was revealed in contemporary history and the history of the religion was well-documented.

The history of the Baha’i Faith began in 1844 with the coming of the Bab. The two authoritative texts that depict the history are The Dawn-Breakers (Nabíl’s Narrative of the Early Days of the Bahá’í Revelation) and God Passes By (1844-1944). Of course the history going forward is still to be written.

Those books can be found in the Baha’i Reference Library:

Baha’i Reference Library (old version)

Baha’i Reference Library (new version, downloadable)

Other books that go into great detail are as follows:

The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4, which cover the 40 years of His Mission, from 1853-1892

 

[muhammad_isa]

Could you just cite the research that evidences an omniscient deity, that knows everything we will do before we do it, it would save a lot of time.

I don't need to.
You obviously don't understand that this universe is a space-time continuum.
Leave God out of it. Einstein did

In the block universe, then, what someone perceives as the future is what someone else saw as the past, depending on the person’s position and motion. Events that have yet to happen for one person, it appears, have already happened for another. The future, though it remains unknown to you, seems to be written already. Einstein himself described it thus: “People like us, who believe in physics, know that the distinction between past, present and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion.”

 

[Lain]

I do not claim that the Baha'i Faith is superior to historic Christianity, only that the evidence for the Baha'i Faith is more verifiable since it was revealed in contemporary history and the history of the religion was well-documented.

The history of the Baha’i Faith began in 1844 with the coming of the Bab. The two authoritative texts that depict the history are The Dawn-Breakers (Nabíl’s Narrative of the Early Days of the Bahá’í Revelation) and God Passes By (1844-1944). Of course the history going forward is still to be written.

Those books can be found in the Baha’i Reference Library:

Baha’i Reference Library (old version)

Baha’i Reference Library (new version, downloadable)

Other books that go into great detail are as follows:

The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4, which cover the 40 years of His Mission, from 1853-1892

Thank you, I'll check 'em out. God bless. Bookmarking all this.

 

[Trailblazer]

How does our free will affect being drowned by a tsunami or bitten by a snake or developing cancer as a child?

Those things are not subject to the free will of man because they were not chosen. Rather those were predestined/fated by God so we had no control over them.

If people should thank god for the good that happens in their lives, should they also curse him for the bad?

Sometimes we do but it is not a great idea. Every time I watch Forensic Files I wonder how a loving God could allow such heinous murders, leaving the parents of the victim to suffer and grieve.

An utterly fatuous argument.
What would you think of a parent who allows their baby to drink bleach, even though they didn't promote it?
What is the point of a policeman who allows crime to happen? Do you excuse them because they didn't actively promote it? No, they are sacked or prosecuted.
A teacher who allows their pupils to play truant is an incompetent teacher, despite not promoting truancy.

It is the fallacy of false equivalency to compare God with a human because God is not a human. God cannot be expected to do what humans are expected to do since God is not a human.

False equivalence is a logical fallacy in which an equivalence is drawn between two subjects based on flawed or false reasoning. This fallacy is categorized as a fallacy of inconsistency.[1] A colloquial expression of false equivalency is "comparing apples and oranges".

This fallacy is committed when one shared trait between two subjects is assumed to show equivalence, especially in order of magnitude, when equivalence is not necessarily the logical result.[2] False equivalence is a common result when an anecdotal similarity is pointed out as equal, but the claim of equivalence doesn't bear scrutiny because the similarity is based on oversimplification or ignorance of additional factors.
False equivalence - Wikipedia

So why does god keep interfering with droughts, floods, earthquakes, etc, etc?

God is not causing any of those things to happen, they are simply inherent in living in a material world where such things happen. Some natural disaster are directly related to the actions of man so man is accountable for his actions (e.g., global warming causing weather-related disasters).

 

[muhammad_isa]

The timeless, predetermined view of reality held by Einstein remains popular today. “The majority of physicists believe in the block-universe view, because it is predicted by general relativity,” said Marina Cortês, a cosmologist at the University of Lisbon.

Einstein didn't believe in a "personal god"..
Neither do I. G-d is the Creator and Maintainer of the universe.
Einstein grew up in Nazi Germany, and was caught between Christianity, Judaism and the gaining popularity of Deism due to the "enlightenment".

 

[Sheldon]

I don't need to.

I didn't say you needed to, I asked you to since this discourse was predicated on that claim.

 

[Sheldon]

Leave God out of it. Einstein did

A bizarre thing to say to an atheist?

 

[Sheldon]

Einstein didn't believe in a "personal god"..

You do however, and have implied Einstein's work supports your claim that an omniscient deity exists, and knows everything we will do, and of course that we still have free will. If Einstein's work supports this conclusions why didn't he believe it?

 

[muhammad_isa]

You do however, and have implied Einstein's work supports your claim that an omniscient deity exists..

You get zero points for comprehension.
Where have I said that?

Stop waffling on, and ignoring the truth.
I'm making a scientific claim with evidence to back it up.
You claim that the "growing block theory" can be compatible with relativity?
Please provide evidence for this.

I'll remind you..
“The majority of physicists believe in the block-universe view, because it is predicted by general relativity,”

 

[rational experiences]

Who said earth a planet was God in science?

Human being science men did.

Do you theory for the planets natural presence as a theist? My theory only equals a planet. To say I know.

No.

All theory is about space time how to change earths mass into a loss of cooling evolution to gain energy from heat.

Einstein apologised to me in a vision. Said he was wrong and sorry.

As man was never claiming I know why a planet existed as that is not energy science. If he said my info equals planet it would end right there. No science inventions at all.

Science first a natural man thinking. Said I name earth a God and no man is God. So don't change God.

First natural man in science position.

So if you deride God in science you deride the scientist himself.

Father said today. If a bird chirps don't you just hear by feedback sound travel a bird chirps?

Natural science first.

Science says sound is a power you harness to resource in Phi status. Energy resonance he says lying.

I hear man's voice in bird chirping why satanists?

Reality. Science theme I studied music. Music is by invention. Humans invent instruments. I hear it naturally. I also recorded music again and transmitted it by inventions.

Re recorded.

Then in atmosphere haarp experiments study music sound voice recorded recordings by a man's transmited computer program. Lots of machines. Lots of mass radio waves belonging just to machine signals recording recording then transmitting recording.

Masses of machine caused sounds. Carrier is not sound.

Now falsifying all information of and about natural sounds.

I know I got irradiated as a cause effect. How I learnt science is a liar. We always knew as natural humans first that science is a liar.

Spirituality in science...just lies.

If you say you need a review of science hence spirituality an answer is not the review.

Control of science choice by rational humans is the review.

As it has nothing to do with God. It has everything to do with human choice.

O planet earth God.
It's heavens gods owned creation history earth.